Lost Solun: A History in Pictures

[makedonche]

The importance of the video lies on the first color pictures of Thessaloniki, not the narration. I told you my opinion of it, but I don’t really disagree with them.

The 1910s were not 1850s, so a Christian would officially and legally count in the Bulgarian or Romanian Church etc. It is certain that someone who joined Bulgarian Exarchate is a Bulgarian or a pro-Bulgarian or (from your point of view) an ethnic-Macedonian. He couldn’t be a Greek. On the other hand you can still find Slavophones and some Vlachs among the Greeks of the Patriarchate (the ones you often call Grecomaniacs). All the above have to be considered in the censuses and the political alliance of people.



That is correct. We know it for sure that some Christians converted to Islam and stayed back. Similarly, some Muslims probably converted and stayed in Macedonia. Yet, it’s interesting that the numbers in both cases are very small, as statistics can show. It’s not that people were very religious. It’s because most people were tied with their (religious) community and the whole community or family left. A whole village would leave together, travel and settle and start a new similar village together.

Furthermore, Thessaloniki was (in comparison) a smaller city. It now has multiplied by 5 or 6. It lost Jews and Muslims which were about 70% of its’ original (prior 1912) population. Thus, now it’s difficult to trace old Thessalonians who were here before 1912. They would be less than 5-10% of the current population.



Solun is an exonym. I have often asked WHEN it is first traced. That would be really interesting. It seems none of you can even find the answer.

====

Amphipolis
As usual, give you enough rope and you hang yourself! Not too dissimilar to your country....give them enough money and they'll squander it , then come looking for more.......hence the new owners of your country (and your arse's for that matter).

[Mad Mak]

Lastly, I have a fuzzy memory that Thessalonike appears in an early Slavonic (?) text with a different name, not Solun or Thessalonike but something like… Selanina (I don’t remember it). Does that ring a bell to anyone?

You probably read it in this thread: Who are the Slavs? - Citations and Sources , in one of SoM's posts, here's a direct link to the post.

Ceлyнeнинa=Selunenina

The early Slavonic text in question is "Life of Methodius" (Vita Methodii) written by Saint Clement of Ohrid.

[George S.]

Amphipolis you are just claiming that solun was allways yours you simply change the name back that is bullshit.

[Redsun]

Amphipolis "The importance of the video lies on the first color pictures of Thessaloniki, not the narration. I told you my opinion of it, but I don’t really disagree with them".


These pictures seem incompatible,

Statement from video “There’s substantial contingents of Greek soldiers and Bulgarian soldiers roaming the city and when you look down over the city from the fort at the top down to the bay…”

5.50 – 5.59 Two pictures depict the city landscape, the shape and architecture of the buildings. Some pictures throughout the film depict buildings that don’t appear to have any similarities to the buildings captured in the overall landscape pictures taken from the fort. How can it be certain that these are pictures of Salon.

Amphipolis - The 1910s were not 1850s, so a Christian would officially and legally count in the Bulgarian or Romanian Church etc. It is certain that someone who joined Bulgarian Exarchate is a Bulgarian or a pro-Bulgarian or (from your point of view) an ethnic-Macedonian. He couldn’t be a Greek. On the other hand you can still find Slavophones and some Vlachs among the Greeks of the Patriarchate (the ones you often call Grecomaniacs). All the above have to be considered in the censuses and the political alliance of people.


The population of Greece is heterogeneous.

In the time period we discuss. Why couldn’t an “ethnic Macedonian” or “ethnic anything” enter a heterogeneous Church that was open to all racial backgrounds?

How can you be so certain?

Greece adopted a heterogeneous population from the Ottoman empire.

The Ottomans identified nationality with religion. The Greek government adopted the Ottoman perspective on "nationality."

Statement from video “The Empire was not interested in Ethnicity, it ruled by allowing different religious communities a high degree of autonomy and self government.”

[George S.]

Ha what a joke you are quoting from a greek written bible their version.of events.You say its all greek why would the apostle visit two seperate countries macedonia and greece.Macedonia accepted the christian message the greeks it says didnt as they beleived their myths.Thats all there is to it you called everything os and you called thessaloniki because it was your version.

[George S.]

The alternative name was solun.The macedonians preffered that to thessaloniki.
"""After the fall of the kingdom of Macedon in 168 BC, Thessalonica became a free city of the Roman Republic under Mark Antony in 41 BC.[21][23] It grew to be an important trade-hub located on the Via Egnatia,[24] the road connecting Dyrrhachium with Byzantium,[25] which facilitated trade between Thessaloniki and great centers of commerce such as Rome and Byzantium.[26] Thessaloniki also lay at the southern end of the main north-south route through the Balkans along the valleys of the Morava and Axios river valleys, thereby linking the Balkans with the rest of Greece.[27] The city later became the capital of one of the four Roman districts of Macedonia.[24] Later it became the capital of all the Greek provinces of the Roman Empire because of the city's importance in the Balkan peninsula."""
THere is a distinction in roman times and prior tp that it wasnt greek.Macedonians would have retained greek if they were greek but they weren't.The greeks sometimes wrote their version of history 100's of years later.
Yes you are missing something its either greek or it isnt .Are we just assuming that greek is macedonian.???

[Amphipolis]

Allso why the need to change the name from solun to thessaloniki??

(After some searching).

While searching for the first appearance of Solun, I thought that since Thessalonike appears in the Bible (Acts of the Apostles and at least two Epistles to Thessalonians), I should look at the first translations of the Bible to Old Church Slavonic (around 860 AD). After failing to find them… it seems that these translations are lost. Is that so? If yes, then what has survived from Old Church Slavonic? (just curious). This is your ancient language. Is anyone interested? Do you study it at school?

Moving forward, it seems that the earliest Slavonic versions of the Bible are from around 1350 AD in a language that is (arguably) considered (Middle?) Bulgarian. Does Solun appear there? Am I missing something? Also, Western Slavic versions (particularly Slovenian ones) seem to be earlier.

Lastly, I have a fuzzy memory that Thessalonike appears in an early Slavonic (?) text with a different name, not Solun or Thessalonike but something like… Selanina (I don’t remember it). Does that ring a bell to anyone?

[George S.]

What is more to say for someone who has stolen macedonian lands and changed the toponyms to greek ones.Who forbade the speaking of their macedonian language.All under the guise that the macedonians were greek.They created the assimilation policies to destroy anything macedonian.Solun is by no means the exception to their assimlation to become thessanoliki so that they can say its all greek.We all know it wasnt greek.WE know prior to the balkan wars greek existence in the aegean was only 10 percent of the population.WE know what the greeks did to change that with the change in toponyms and expulsion of the macedonian population.
Amphipolis you are totally wrong.Solun was the original macedonian name not thessaloniki.Your brand of history simply ignores the existence of the macedonian people.
If it was all greek why deny the macedonians who were called endopi the original settlers.Allso why the need to change the name from solun to thessaloniki??
Its plainfully simple To hide the fact that genocide on a macedonian people was committed and their lands were confiscated simply dor the greater glory of the greeks.Would you call that glory in stealing?

[Amphipolis]

Is it not contradictory to post a video that clearly states “They were identifying themselves according to their Religion” then post a statement with figures representing ethnic minorities?
How can I take these figures into consideration if people at the time were identifying themselves according to their Religion?
These figures are misleading and cannot be accurate.

The importance of the video lies on the first color pictures of Thessaloniki, not the narration. I told you my opinion of it, but I don’t really disagree with them.

The 1910s were not 1850s, so a Christian would officially and legally count in the Bulgarian or Romanian Church etc. It is certain that someone who joined Bulgarian Exarchate is a Bulgarian or a pro-Bulgarian or (from your point of view) an ethnic-Macedonian. He couldn’t be a Greek. On the other hand you can still find Slavophones and some Vlachs among the Greeks of the Patriarchate (the ones you often call Grecomaniacs). All the above have to be considered in the censuses and the political alliance of people.

Amphipolis
Furthermore my point is that not all Turks/Muslims/Albanians left Solun, there are those who remained and still remain.....despite your governments decades of attempts at social genocide, and you & your forefathers as a citizens of this mixed bred mongrel country called Greece have sat back and let it happen and now take great pleasure in your handywork by continuing your governments social genocide policies! Your time is coming for accountability, just like that of your government!

That is correct. We know it for sure that some Christians converted to Islam and stayed back. Similarly, some Muslims probably converted and stayed in Macedonia. Yet, it’s interesting that the numbers in both cases are very small, as statistics can show. It’s not that people were very religious. It’s because most people were tied with their (religious) community and the whole community or family left. A whole village would leave together, travel and settle and start a new similar village together.

Furthermore, Thessaloniki was (in comparison) a smaller city. It now has multiplied by 5 or 6. It lost Jews and Muslims which were about 70% of its’ original (prior 1912) population. Thus, now it’s difficult to trace old Thessalonians who were here before 1912. They would be less than 5-10% of the current population.

Why alter the name if it was greek.Also why deport the population and take in greek turks simply to alter the demographics.Why change the name to greek thesdaloniki if it was called solun.solun the place in the sun.
Yes the greeks tried to give the place a greek slant.THere is the macedonian version.

Solun is an exonym. I have often asked WHEN it is first traced. That would be really interesting. It seems none of you can even find the answer.

====

[makedonche]

There's an extended discussion here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=596&highlight=Thrace

The Muslims of Thrace are limited by the Treaty of Lausanne in the districts of Xanthe and Rodope (i.e. away from the borderline district of Evros) but in smaller numbers some have passed to Evros and the rest of Greece. They basically consist of three kinds: ethnic-Turks, Pomaks and Gypsies. They are estimated around 0,7-0,9% of population of Greece and the Greek Parliament usually has around 2-4 Muslim MPs.

So, we don’t know where the Muslim Albanians vanished (they were not so many). My point was that they weren’t sent to Albania, but to Turkey.

Amphipolis
As I expected more denial, more bullshit and no credible facts from an independent source!

Furthermore my point is that not all Turks/Muslims/Albanians left Solun, there are those who remained and still remain.....despite your governments decades of attempts at social genocide, and you & your forefathers as a citizens of this mixed bred mongrel country called Greece have sat back and let it happen and now take great pleasure in your handywork by continuing your governments social genocide policies! Your time is coming for accountability, just like that of your government!

[Redsun]

These two posts, do they not oppose one another. Post #49 and post #51.

Post #49. In the Ottoman Empire, religion was the main difference between the people and this was also the main element of their identities.

So if you went to the Balkans like these photographers at that time and you asked "who you are" people would say I'm Christian, I'm Orthodox. I'm Catholic, I'm Jew, I'm Muslim. They were identifying themselves according to their Religion.

Post #51. Orthodox Christians also had their ethnicities (through language) and after 1880s had their separate Churches and schools. Thus, except for Greeks you could find Bulgarians (around 20% of the Christians) and also up to 1500 Serbs and 1000 Romanians (Vlachs).

Lastly, the three main communities (Jews, Muslims, Christians) that had a “peaceful coexistence”, actually lived totally separate parallel lives having the least possible contact to each other.


Is it not contradictory to post a video that clearly states “They were identifying themselves according to their Religion” then post a statement with figures representing ethnic minorities?

How can I take these figures into consideration if people at the time were identifying themselves according to their Religion?

These figures are misleading and cannot be accurate.

[George S.]

Why alter the name if it was greek.Also why deport the population and take in greek turks simply to alter the demographics.Why change the name to greek thesdaloniki if it was called solun.solun the place in the sun.
Yes the greeks tried to give the place a greek slant.THere is the macedonian version.

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis
You continue to live in your Greek denial world, so now your'e trying to tell me they were all deported in the population exchange? If that's the case, of the recognised minority in Greece - what do they comprise of and where do they live?....back it up with facts and not just denials...preferrably from a non Greek source!, don't forget your'e dealing with a Macedonian, I don't swallow any of your Greek bullshit!

There's an extended discussion here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=596&highlight=Thrace

The Muslims of Thrace are limited by the Treaty of Lausanne in the districts of Xanthe and Rodope (i.e. away from the borderline district of Evros) but in smaller numbers some have passed to Evros and the rest of Greece. They basically consist of three kinds: ethnic-Turks, Pomaks and Gypsies. They are estimated around 0,7-0,9% of population of Greece and the Greek Parliament usually has around 2-4 Muslim MPs.

So, we don’t know where the Muslim Albanians vanished (they were not so many). My point was that they weren’t sent to Albania, but to Turkey.

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis - Orthodox Christians also had their ethnicities (through language) and after 1880s had their separate Churches and schools. Thus, except for Greeks you could find Bulgarians (around 20% of the Christians) and also up to 1500 Serbs and 1000 Romanians (Vlachs).

Lastly, the three main communities (Jews, Muslims, Christians) that had a “peaceful coexistence”, actually lived totally separate parallel lives having the least possible contact to each other.



Ethnicity cannot be determined through language.

20% of Christians were Bulgarian Orthodox...The other divisions of Christianity that form the 80% of the remaining Christians are...

That excerpt alone?

Source?

Before 1912 (around 1910-11) Bulgarian Consulate estimates Bulgarians of Thessaloniki around 8,2%, while the Greek consulate says they are 4%.

The first official census (1913) finds them at 3,9% and after the Balkan Wars (in 1916) they have sharply dropped to 1,1%.

[makedonche]

I had to watch this again to see if I have missed something. This is a 7 minutes part of a BBC documentary, a vehicle to present these rare color pictures of Thessaloniki. The narration and interviews of two historians (?) has no content and is full of clichés. The whole feeling is either Jewish (or what is now called New Order), i.e. the nostalgia for the loss of a multicultural environment. Lastly, this is British, not Greek.

The (Muslim) Albanians of Thessaloniki were deported to… Turkey in 1922 (as part of the population exchange).

Amphipolis
You continue to live in your Greek denial world, so now your'e trying to tell me they were all deported in the population exchange? If that's the case, of the recognised minority in Greece - what do they comprise of and where do they live?....back it up with facts and not just denials...preferrably from a non Greek source!, don't forget your'e dealing with a Macedonian, I don't swallow any of your Greek bullshit!