Greek General Demetrios Kallergis on who fought the Turks (1860)

[Bratot]

Please TM, you don't have to apologize for anything.

I have found this information in many Macedonian and Bulgarian history books in the google links I provided, if you go thoroughly the next pages of the searching results you will see for yourself.

According to these several books, Marko Bochvarot was born in Voden.

In your other thread about the Macedonian participants in Greek Revolution it says that Marko formed strong 'cheta' of Macedonian "Slavs" who followed him after the failure of Negush uprising.

Maybe it's coincidence but it can be clear indication that Marko was close with our people(one of us) and actively collaborated during the general strugle against the Turks.

[TrueMacedonian]

I cited the historian V. Stojchev, I haven't made up such claim.

The name of Marko Bochvarot is evidenced in other sources also, there are still living persons bearing that name in today Macedonia.
There are also other Komiti bearing that name and there are few Macedonian folksongs about it.

Try by searching Bocvarot, Bochvarot, Бочварот.

Also Google books:

http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&q=is+evidenced+in+other+sources+also&wrapid=tlif130332783173610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp#sclient=psy&hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=cffa9a2a3c6bffd0

http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&q=is+evidenced+in+other+sources+also&wrapid=tlif130332783173610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp#sclient=psy&hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=Bochvarot&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=cffa9a2a3c6bffd0

However, the point of Kallergis stands for it.

Bratot I want to apologize to you and state you are definitely correct here. http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks...G=Search+Books

Apparently the 19th century writer Robert Cyprien had wrote the following:

One of the Slavs, Botchar , born in Vodina(Voden), emigrated to Mount Soulion, became famous throughout Europe as the Greek Botzaris.

Indeed this is a source, however, not sure how accurate a source it is. Botchar, or Bochvar, may be a totally different person than Botsaris.

[TrueMacedonian]

The link was about the Hungarians and I had to go into detail about the terms because some of you couldn't realize that terms have different meanings

Same as we showed you that the term 'Albanian' could mean different things as well.

[Droog]

The link was about the Hungarians and I had to go into detail about the terms because some of you couldn't realize that terms have different meanings

[Orfej]

Did I ever say Grenzers=Greeks? No

This is what you said:

That's a personal website and while I'm willing to accept that it also included ethnic Macedonians a scholarly source would be more reliable. On the other hand at the time of its foundation it included only Albanianshttp://books.google.com/books?id=uUw...one%22&f=false, but later Hungarians and Greeks enrolled toohttp://www.flickr.com/photos/28981624@N02/3740770183/

So you claimed that Greeks were included in the regiment and you provided a ''source'' for it. The problem is that there is no mentioning of the Greeks in that source, just Hungarians and Grenzers/Croats! My assumption is that you tried to manipulate us to think that Grenzers = Greeks. Maybe i'm wrong, maybe you posted the link because you liked the photo in it!

On the other hand the Macedonovlachs source and the fact that both I and Voltron explained to you the context which is quite simple for anyone who knows the basics of modern Greek, doesn't stop you from claiming stuff that simply don't exist. You seem to think that somehow modern ethnic Macedonians built Greece based on a single assumption you made today

No, that's not what i seem to think. What i seem to think is that you made a claim (that the term ''Macedonian'' used by Kalergis actually meant ''Vlach'') which you miserably failed to support with proofs. We know that the term ''Macedonian'' just like the terms ''Greek'',''Hellene'', ''Bulgarian'',''Albanian'' had many meanings. You didn't needed the stupid mentioning of the Royal Macedonian regiment to tell us that. But the term ''Macedonian'' was not used by Greeks to denote Vlachs as a people. If you want to convince us otherwise then show us some proofs where Greeks used the term ''Macedonian'' for the Vlachs, since we our not aware of such practice. Don't hide behind terms like ''Macedonovlachs'' which are essentially different from simply ''Macedonian''.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You seem to think that somehow modern ethnic Macedonians built Greece based on a single assumption you made today........

Nobody here has suggested such a thing, that is just a deliberate distortion to suit the argument your trying to reply with. It's rather simplistic and outdated.

As I already proved the term Macedonian had many definitions.......

There are some cases where terms currently used in the Balkans have meant different things at different times in the past, and that includes the term Albanian. Your automatic assumption about the reference to Macedonians fighting the Turks in Greece in the original source is based on your biased presumption against the Macedonian identity. You previously stated "at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups", yet you've failed to answer two simple questions in relation to that statement:

1 - How many sources are there from pre 1860 Greece in which the Vlachs are referred to as Macedonians?

2 - How did the Vlachs contribute in the fighting during the war which led to the creation of a modern Greek state/entity?

[TrueMacedonian]

Check the previous sources as you can see the Albanians of those sources were given settlements in the Abruzzo area. These settlements are still today part of the Albanian minority of Italy.

If we go by your train of thought why should we take those sources at face value when we know that the term 'Albanian' can mean something other than an ethnicity? Or should we just continue to avoid the fact that neither you nor Voltron have provided us with something from grk sources of that time that stipulate Macedonian just meant Vlach?

Back to the original topic on hand, which seems to be getting constantly veered off the road due to obvious reasons,

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1858

[Droog]

....

Did I ever say Grenzers=Greeks? No
I added the link next to Hungarians, so you can spare us your outburst(which is just that since you can't really prove anything). On the other hand the Macedonovlachs source and the fact that both I and Voltron explained to you the context which is quite simple for anyone who knows the basics of modern Greek, doesn't stop you from claiming stuff that simply don't exist. You seem to think that somehow modern ethnic Macedonians built Greece based on a single assumption you made today, but let's assume just for a sec that Kallergis means ethnic Macedonians. So which are these ethnic Macedonian heroes/benefactors that build modern Greece(the era this was written was about or prior to 1860 iirc)? I want names, sources and facts. This isn't the Macedonian struggle, but a case related primarily if not exclusively to southern Greece.

[Orfej]

Did I ever say that Grenzer=Greek? No

You claimed that there were Hungarian and Greek troops in the regiment and you offered this web page as a proof.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28981624@N02/3740770183/

In it we read the following:

Many of its members were deserters from the Imperialists' Grenzer and Hungarian regts.

Again you pathetically tried to manipulate us(for god knows which time).

Speaking of the regiment http://books.google.com/books?id=kv9...page&q&f=false when it was formed in 1592 it only had Albanians so obviously Macedonians=Macedonians in the modern sense

You also claimed the same for this book, BUT AS IT TURNED OUT YOU WERE LYING.

http://books.google.com/books?id=uUwOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA48&dq=%22Reggimento+Reale+Macedone%22&hl=en&ei=zk6wTYmXIcnqOfLRtKcJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22Reggimento%20Reale%20Macedone%22&f=false

Now you offer us another book where this ''fact'' can be read. You simply can't stop LYING! Is it pathological?

PS:You said that the term ''Macedonian'' was used to denote Albanians and as a proof you gave the Royal Macedonian regiment(which according to you was consisted only by Albanians in its foundation).Just to show how stupid is your reasoning i will make a parallel with the city of Macedonia in Ohio, USA

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&pq=macedonia+usa+plase&xhr=t&q=macedonia+ohio&cp=12&qe=bWFjZWRvbmlhIG9o&qesig=5uIu_gu568qLWnVkOM721Q&pkc=AFgZ2tmerLp66G1mkcSnFXiGwJXImKuBRaXapvUYowQL9EFPyqMZpd2DvqE-3xqvn6oSUaUJkM8e9wP1XIwDUEfMdjL6SMx6rg&client=firefox-a&hs=qXK&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Macedonia,+OH&ei=Gn2wTci9AcbDswaoxLz0Cw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQ8gEwAA

Apparently this town in USA has/had no residents of Macedonian origin. So what should we conclude according to you? That the term ''Macedonian'' when the city was build was used to denote an American?

[Droog]

His idea of natural borders for Grcija are quite different than what they are today.

That's actually the school of thought that prevailed in Greece until Venizelos, who wanted the Greece of two continents and 5 seas(megali idea), while the previous politicians wanted of course the megali idea too but as the result of the self-determination of the people that inhabited those areas and not direct greek army involvement and that's why they excluded some regions many times

[Droog]

Droog what makes you think that "Albanians" even means ethnically Albanian???

Check the previous sources as you can see the Albanians of those sources were given settlements in the Abruzzo area. These settlements are still today part of the Albanian minority of Italy.

[Droog]

Droog thinks that the sentence in bold means that the Greeks and Hungarians were also included in the regiment. Sorry Droog, but ''GRENZER'' has nothing to do with Greece. It was a Croatian regiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenz_infantry

Did I ever say that Grenzer=Greek? No
Speaking of the regiment http://books.google.com/books?id=kv9...page&q&f=false when it was formed in 1592 it only had Albanians so obviously Macedonians=Macedonians in the modern sense

[TrueMacedonian]

Like I said I'm willing to accept sources, but the term Illyrians of that last source refers to Croats and since as I said before when the regiment was created it included only Albanians someone could say "so if Illyrian=Croat why should Macedonian=ethnic Macedonian and something else?"

Droog what makes you think that "Albanians" even means ethnically Albanian???



Greece and the Balkans By Dēmētrēs Tziovas

[TrueMacedonian]

Anyways Droog steered this topic off-topic already so now we'll go back to Kallergis and who he was affiliated with:

According to this grk website (similar article in wikipedia for you wiki lovers out there) http://dimitrios-kallergis.co.tv/ Kallergis worked as an aide de camp under Giovanni Capo D'Istria then governor of grcija. And Capo D'Istria would later become the President of Bavarian King Otto's Grcija. Here's what he said about Macedonia:




His idea of natural borders for Grcija are quite different than what they are today.

[Droog]

Like I said I'm willing to accept sources, but the term Illyrians of that last source refers to Croats and since as I said before when the regiment was created it included only Albanians someone could say "so if Illyrian=Croat why should Macedonian=ethnic Macedonian and something else?"