Proto-Slavic in Homer's Works
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Originally posted by George S. View Postas i said theoriginal homer illiad was supposed to be written in the pelasgian language that's what the greeks don't want people to know they assume that its all greek it isn't
Originally posted by George S. View PostThat's the 64 dollar question I have known this for the last 50 60 years im fully aware that it was the pelasgian language that homer wrote the illiad as the original language you are just skirting around the issue.
Originally posted by George S. View PostIf the illiad was written in the pelasgian language then that EXPLAINS WHY THERE ARE SO MANY WORDS IN MACEDONIAN WORDS SIMILAR and WE CAN understand words of pelasgian with Macedonian words.
You are just showing me PREFABRICATED greek translated stuff.When in fact is the otherway around.IF the ORIGINAL texrs of the ILLIAD were in fact GREEK then I don't have a problem WITH THAT BUT they weren't.THIS is stuff the greeks don't want people TO know.
Originally posted by George S. View PostSSS I'm not as STUPID as you THINK.I have known THIS not from Or propaganda ,BUt from various things about THE PELASGIANS.Why is it that it means white faces. you don't even know that.What a coincidence the greeks had black faces sounds familiar.When one questions the root of all things one begins to understand that one would hit their head on greek translated stuff .The originals weren't in greek you begin to understand that's one BIG LIE.But when you really look at it its not just one LIE BUT many.
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ss where is the original you say is in greek and where is the pelasgian version.You are in denial are you calling all those that know the areas of concern were with people the greeks said were barbarians.THe greeks never understood their language.If we find the so called greek you cal; it the classical greek.If that's the case then stop calling pelasgian as classical greek.Far from classical.Don';t tell me your similar to the Minoans,your similar to other races.You call them protogreek Proto yes greek no.You are on THE bandwagon to appropriate other peoples history .illiads Macedonian history as your own.THe greeks were just colonisers.But we find they misappropriate different things.
DO you know what gives you away is that opinion is exactly as your govt would want you to be,DEnial & paranoia hand in hand.SO what is new."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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this video will shock ss for it shows Macedonian woreds in homers illiad:
SS go on and admit it
Macedonian language in Homer's Iliad
Last edited by George S.; 06-13-2014, 08:03 AM."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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more shocks for SS there are Slavic words.part 1
more shocks for SS there are Slavic words.part 2
[url]http://youtu.be/pJds5_2yIrk[/ur
Ancient Macedonian words in homers illiad part 3
http://youtu.be/p7zgeZMFMSg
Ancient Macedonian words in Homers illiad part 4
http://youtu.be/kW5EYo09mks
Ancient macedonians words in Homer's Iliad Part 5
http://youtu.be/hSeA7rUzd60Last edited by George S.; 06-13-2014, 03:12 PM."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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ILIAD and the ODYSSEY the END OF the GREEK LIE
"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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So I hope we all got all of that nationalism out of out system. In any case, back on topic, I have done some research on this. I did find a few words similar to Slavic words with the same meaning:
Homeric Slavic Definition
Kίον Kinisa To set (in place, in motion, etc.)
Kοτύλη Kotle Cup/Cauldron
Στείνω Stenka Groan/Moan/Yell/Audible Noise
Όδίτης Odi (go) Journey, Voyage
Έσθίω Jestivo Eat/Taste (still in Greek)
Βίῃ Ubie Beat by force
Δολιχός Dolgo Long/Lengthy
Oἶνος Vino Wine
Δαϝήρ Dever Brother in Law
Σϝεκυρός Svekor Father in Law
Σϝεκυρή Svekrva Mother in Law
Tείνω Tegni Stretch (still in Greek)
Aττα Ata Father
Mαῖα Majka Mother/Older woman
Δόμονδε Dom+onde House (to the,)
Aμαλός Malo Young/Youth
Σύν So With
Οδε Ovde Here
Λέγω Ley go Lay down/set down
Έἷσε Peysi Sing
Έρυκω V'raka In-hand/Hold
Aρείων Aren Good/Better
Πεζός Peshki On foot (in Greek)
Στείνω Stegni To confine/to press down
Tριβω Iztrigo Rub
Bάδην Vodi Advance/lead
Tί/Tii Oti Why/How
Mοῖρα Moia Mine (One's own)
It should be noted that some of these are still found in modern Greek.
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Bringing back this topic because it had some real potential.
In Modern Greek, ethumo εθυμο does not exist on its own, which in fact strongly indicates that the word has been borrowed by Greek from an earlier European language. Since the word and its derivatives and relations could not be identified in the Latin or Germanic group of languages, I initiated a search for possible Slavic connections, particularly within the older Macedonian dialects, which revealed that the word ethumo is related to the Macedonian words дума (duma) > думо (dumo)> умо (umo) which equate with word, thought and mind. Delving into the Homeric realm, I discovered that the South Slavic duma is very close in meaning to the ancient word dumo > thumo θυμο, d > th >θ. According to G. Curtius [14], the ancient Macedonians frequently changed the sound θ to d or t. The word θυμο, as pointed out by E. Maltby [15], means mind or soul. We find the same in other Homeric words and expressions, such as thumalgi > dumalk meaning distressing the mind and dumo e moi meaning the thought is mine. Further analysis of the South Slavic words umo (the mind) dumo > duma (a word, thought, to think), reveals that they are firmly based in the same root word, um > umo (the mind).The word hore ↔ ghore (Macedonian горе (gore), Slovene gor, gori) is related to and originates from the movement of the Sun, the rising sun and its position, height, or elevation above the horizon. The movement of the Sun or the Earth is the most accurate time clock from nature that has faithfully existed for billions of years. The basic concept of height and the height of the sun above the horizon is derived from a universal observation related to time and its measurement. The very meaning of the word horizon is derived from the words hore izen (Macedonian горе иде (gore ide)) meaning point of going up, makes the observation unequivocal. We also have from the Slavic word ghore (Macedonian горе (gore)) meaning up, height and ize > idze > idene > ide (Macedonian иде (ide)) meaning travel, go. The Slavic word ghore and the Proto Slav sun god horus relate to the Pre-dynastic Egyptian sun god horus who also became known as Harsiesis. Slavic ghore > ghare (Macedonian горе (gore) одозгора (odozgora), Slovene: lit. gor, dial. gare) meaning above, combined with sijaish > sieish (Macedonian сјаеш (sjaesh), Slovene siješ) meaning gives light, shines we have Ghorsieish ↔ Harsiesis literally meaning the one above that shines. The concept of the horizon is, simply, the universal fixed reference point at which the earth meets the heavens from which the sun raises and toward which it descends. Anything standing upright in the ground (e.g. a tree) will cast a shadow, which lengthens or recedes in direct proportion to the height of the sun. This phenomenon served early man as rudimentary clock, which 13 we recognize as a sun dial.Let us consider the word for the human eye as such is found in the Homeric epics. The Homeric term for eye is okko (Macedonian око (oko)). The Online Etymology Dictionary [12] states that okko is Greek in origin, simply under the assumption that it is found in the Homeric epics. However this is incorrect because the Greek word for eye is mati ματι, found in such words as matogialia µατογυαλια meaning eyeglasses. The Greek word mati is non-Indo-European and relates to the Indonesian mata meaning eye. Another Greek word for eye is ophtalmos οφθαλμοσ which in its base has the basic Slavic root verb opuli > puli meaning to see, that coincides with numerous other light-related words, such as obeli, obeluva > belina ( b↔p) (Macedonian обели, бели, белина (obeli, beli, belina)), Slovene obeli, beli, belina) meaning to lighten, to illuminate, brightness. The Natural concept here 14 is that the eye is permanently connected to light as it is created and functions by reacting to the light. Other words, related to the eye in meaning and sound, are: augo (Modern German meaning eye), auko (Gothic meaning eye), auge αυγη (Homeric meaning bright light, radiance of the sun, daylight), related to light, brightness and the bright side of the world (therefore, the south side), also associated with the side of the northern hemisphere of the world where the sun goes up toward heaven or increases its height above the horizon. Thus, we observe a relationship between the words auge, euko, augo, okko and the eye.The Homeric word nokar meaning sleeping or spending the night can be broken into nok + ar meaning night + activity where the particle ar is a basic Slavic particle that describes activity or doing found in many nouns such as slikar meaning painter.In Slavic, the word for fire is ogan > ogon > ogono > ognoi (Macedonian оган (ogan), Slovene ogenj, dial. even ejgən), which is very close to the Homeric agno, aganoi meaning fire. Here we have the primary relation of the root connection in the words rising sun (light), fire and the eye that has been retained in Slavic. Auge αυγη (Homeric meaning bright light, radiance of the sun, daylight) ↔ ogon (Macedonian огон (ogon) meaning fire) ↔oko (Macedonian око (oko)) meaning eye.According to the Online Etymology Dictionary [12], the word night goes back to the Proto-Indo-European word nokt. However, the Online Etymology Dictionary does not offer further explanation. The form provided closely approximates the modern 15 Slavic nok > noke> nokta (Macedonian ноќ (nokj), Slovene noč) which, when analyzed as a conceptual development relating to natural light and the human eye, evolves from the word for eye: okko, oke, oki, occi, oči and the particle не (ne) meaning no. Therefore, we have a simple creation of ne + okko > neokko > nokko > nok. This concept is confirmed in Classical Mythology by the primordial goddess of the night, Noks > Nuks Νύξ. Such concepts evolved into the other forms for the word night: the Homeric nukta, Macedonian нокта (nokta), Roman noks, Latin nocce, French nuit and Modern Greek nihta νιχτα. The concept shown here indicates that the word night, nok, nokta evolved into related words in the other European Languages but was borrowed into Greek from a far earlier European language (Pelasgian), since the negative particle ne does not exist in Greek. In Greek the actual word ne νε means yes. The original Greek word for night is orfne ορφνη, and is of unknown origin or etymology, possibly non-Indo-European [22].With a brief review of the Language of Homer, we discover numerous words that have no acceptable or meaningful etymology in Greek today, but are easily explained with basic Slavic word roots and forms. A good example of this are the Homeric words for sun found in the Cretan and Laconian languages. In Cretan abelio αβελιο-σ means sun. In Slavic obelio means to make white, bright, to illuminate. In Laconian bela βελα means sun. In Slavic bela means white, bright. Naturally the Sun is associated with illumination, whiteness and brightness. These various Greek dialectical word forms associated with the sun in Homer are not related to ilios ιλιοσ the Modern Greek name for the sun. Also, the proper Modern Greek word for white is leukos λευκοσ. These Homeric and Classical dialectal word forms are based on a Proto Slavic Word Concept, a natural and logical creation of Nature that confirms the basic characteristics of the sun. These examples are further proof that the Slavic Languages are far older than Greek or Latin, as most of these words and forms are firmly based on Natural principals which can be explained by Modern Slavic languages.If we analyze the word praktiko πρακτικο (Classical Greek) for which the older meaning is to do or to make we discover that, it is functionally related to the Homeric words pratto πραττο (Slavic prait > pra > prae meaning to do, to make (Macedonian прави, направи (pravi, napravi), Slovene praviti, napraviti) and the Homeric drako(a) δρακο [22] is virtually identical to the Slavic raka > rakata (dialectal Macedonian раката, ракта (rakata, rakta)) > rakta meaning hand (root ra↔ar via metathesis) we therefore have pra + rakta > prarakta > praktiko > practice. 16 The human hand does virtually everything as a universal tool which performs countless activities, from working in the fields to performing complicated surgery. In earlier times (and, to a considerable extent, today) that which can be done by hand is associated with pragmatism. There is a similar relation in today’s English language between the words hand > handy. The words raka > rakta and praktiko are, therefore, functionally connected.The words воздух (vosduh) > vos duh > duh > duo > due > dusha, dishi (Macedonian воздух, дух, здув, дуе, душа (vozduh, duh, zduv, due, dusha), Slovene vaš duh, duh, dih, pih, duša, diši) meaning air, spirit, breath, blow, soul are also based in the same root word du found in Homer as du θυ > di. G. Curtius [14] drew a connection to the Sanskrit dhu > dhi meaning to be agitated, relating to the concept of moving air, wind (In Slavic dvisati (Macedonian подвижен (pozvizhen), Slovene podvizati se) means to move to be agitated). The words du > di relate to the Homeric words dusae δυσαη, dusais δυσαισ > disai meaning to breathe out and the last breath [23] as in suffocate. This is clearly a Slavic word related to za dushi > dushi (Macedonian задуша, душа (zadusha, dusha), Slovene zaduši, duši). The root-base du, due, duh relating to air, blow, spirit is combined with the word umo > um (Macedonian ум (um), Slovene um) meaning mind, thought, to create the word duma > dumo meaning the spoken word and speech. Thus du + umo results in dumo (thumo) meaning spoken words. This is how speech is created and recorded in language. In other words the main ingredients comprising speech, resulting from observing nature, are du + umo (air + mind) a solid foundation for the study of Conceptual Linguistics.
Also I found a scan of an interlinear translation for the Iliad: https://archive.org/details/iliadhomerwitha00clargoog
Sadly I can't seem to find that series' translation of the Odyssey. That site has plenty of scans of the Odyssey on it though so there's a good chance one of them will be suitable or I just didn't scroll far enough.Last edited by Starling; 09-23-2017, 11:09 PM.
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This one doesn't seem to be a scientific or published article. The Greek/Homer words are so misspelled that it's really hard to find out which word he refers to each time. (ethumo?? okko?? nokar??)
Full ignorance of both ancient and Modern Greek doesn’t help either. By the way we have many threads like these, some of which include detailed discussions for some of these words and could provide information to this guy.
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I found it while looking for stuff on google scholar. Here's the source: http://www.korenine.si/proceedings.htm
Considering some words are rendered multiple ways depending on the translation and okko seems to match other sources I wouldn't really dismiss it solely on that. Besides, he explains the meanings so you should be able to cross-reference with other translations yourself if you're skeptical or just want to make sure. In any case I think he's the director of cultural events at CMHC, in which case he seems like a reputable guy that knows what he's doing. The stuff about conceptual linguistics seems like a good approach.
Also there's a bibliography so I guess you can look at that too. Most of the threads of this type I found are short and inactive. This thread was already around and specifically to discuss slavic words in homer's work so I figured I'd post in it and see if it renewed interest in it. I even dug up a scan of the Iliad so people can take a crack at it directly if they want.
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Well, if anyone can find in Homer the words he's discussing (okko, ethumo, nokar) or can understand which differend words he's misspelling, I'm all ears.
I don't know all ancient words and my imagination has its limits.
==Last edited by Amphipolis; 09-25-2017, 01:35 AM.
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Ok so I skimmed through the translation I posted a link to and I found that there are multiple words that seem to be treated as synonymous with eachother. For example you have the usual gaia for earth but also cthon (χϑὼν). Words translated as king seem to include both variations of ἄναξ and βασιλήων. Ocean seems to be capitalized whenever it's used but other words treated as synonymous include πόντον (ponton) and θαλάσσης (thalasses). In addition to polis another word for city that came up was ἄστεος (asteos)/ἄστυ (asty). Both Zeus (Ζεύς) and Dios (Διός) seem to have been used. ἑταῖροι (hetairoi) was translated as companions (p.85 or 85 and 35 iirc). υἱὸς (yiós) and πάϊς (païs) were both translated as son. ϕάρμαχα (pharmacha) was used once and translated as medicines. I think it was something about fig tree sap.
Regarding the nokar part, he clearly explained the transition:
Slavic nok > noke> nokta (Macedonian ноќ (nokj), Slovene noč) which, when analyzed as a conceptual development relating to natural light and the human eye, evolves from the word for eye: okko, oke, oki, occi, oči and the particle не (ne) meaning no. Therefore, we have a simple creation of ne + okko > neokko > nokko > nok. This concept is confirmed in Classical Mythology by the primordial goddess of the night, Noks > Nuks Νύξ.
On a related note, it seems Greek went more with the occi and oči variants of eye since I found όσσε (osse), apparently repeated twice when used to note a pair of eyes. Eyeing was ὀσσόμενος (ossomenos) but there was also ὄμματα (ommata), ὀϕϑαλμοὶσιν (ophthalmoisin). Saw was ἲδον (ídon) and εἲδων (eídon). Other words related to eyes were γλαυχῶπις (glauchopis) and βοῶπις (boópis), which suggest opis has something to do with eyes.
I found that ϕρένς (phréns)/ϕρεσὶ (phresi)/ϕρένα (phréna) and θυμῷ (thymo) are treated as synonymous with each other as meaning mind, also being used for soul as ϕρέν (phrén) and θυμῷ (thymo). The version with an e was a more modern variant that led to the word etymology. umo > thumo > thymo > ethymo > etymo
I didn't pay too close attention to the case and tense but it's supposed to be a literal translation and some of those are probably context specific. I can go back to individual sections to note more words down or the context they're used in now that I've had a general look at the whole thing. I think I see why there's a theory that Homer didn't write it all himself.Last edited by Starling; 10-07-2017, 05:30 AM.
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I’m not getting the point. It is implied, I guess, that your people recognize similar words in your language.
As in any language, every Greek word has one or more full or partial synonyms.
Gaia=Earth, ground, land, farm. Chthon has all these meanings too
Thalassa and Pontos are full synonyms (=Sea). Usually Pontos tends to be something bigger than thalassa.
Asty=City. Polis=City and also State, community, country, Political system
Zeus and Dios is the same name in nominative and genitive case
Yios=son, Pais=Child
Pharmakon=Medicine (and similar things like mixture, poison etc)
Hetairos= Companion, comrade, friend etc
Nyx=Night, Nykti is the same word in dative case
Ossa=Omma=Ophthalmos=Eye
Ossomai=Oro= to see
Eidon (not Idon)= I saw (in past tense)
Boopis= Bull-eyes suggests someone with big eyes
Glauchopis suggests someone with light-color, piercing eyes
Phren=diaphragm, heart, soul, mind, judgment etc (in modern Greek it means brake and sound mind)
Thymos=Spirit, soul, life, power, will, anger etc (in modern Greek it means anger)
Thymo (as a verb) = to exacerbate, to irritate, to be angry
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Of course most languages have words that are synonymous. The thing is that's how a lot of loan words get used. Poetic prose loves synonyms, loan words and metaphors. Rhythm and tone are important parts of a poem, especially if they were originally sung. Gustlars are still around as an ongoing oral tradition in Macedonia, singing epic poetry. In French you get stuff like parking and stationnement, where the first is basically the English word while the second is derived from a Latin word and is used in various ways with french grammatical rules applied to it. English uses station in various ways too but they got it from French rather than the other way around and basically adapted the grammatical rules along with it, such as stationaire > stationary. English in general is full of borrowed terms from all over the place, which is why it has more exceptions than rules regarding grammar.
I noted synonymous words not because they're all necessarily Slavic so much that it's statistically probable that one of the synonymous words was borrowed from another language. It's worth comparing those words to ones with similar meanings in other languages to see if they're related. I found that barbaros is likely tied to the sanskrit barbaras, for example. It's also useful for trying out conceptual linguistics to better understand how those words came to mean those things.
Gaia=Earth, ground, land, farm. Chthon has all these meanings too
Thalassa and Pontos are full synonyms (=Sea). Usually Pontos tends to be something bigger than thalassa.
Zeus and Dios is the same name in nominative and genitive case
Yios=son, Pais=Child
There was another word for child, something like techos. I'll have to look for it.
Hetairos= Companion, comrade, friend etc
Nyx=Night, Nykti is the same word in dative case
Ossa=Omma=Ophthalmos=Eye
Ossomai=Oro= to see
Eidon (not Idon)= I saw (in past tense)
Boopis= Bull-eyes suggests someone with big eyes
Glauchopis suggests someone with light-color, piercing eyes
Phren=diaphragm, heart, soul, mind, judgment etc (in modern Greek it means brake and sound mind)
Thymos=Spirit, soul, life, power, will, anger etc (in modern Greek it means anger)
Thymo (as a verb) = to exacerbate, to irritate, to be angry
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