The Ancient Macedonian Language

[makedonin]

Here are some phonetic changes that should be known:

K,G,H are guttural
P,B,F are labials
T,D,Th are dentals


K,P,T are voiceless
G,B,D are voiced
H,F,Th are aspirate

The table would look like this:

K|G|H
P|B| F
T|D|Th

Common change is between ones own group for example: gutturals to gutturals. Other changes variant is change from voiceless to voiceless etc.. It is rare diagonal change from voiceless to aspirate or voiced or vice versa. The same goes for guttural to labial or aspirate.

Examples:
Changes between labials: Greek: Pater, English: Father.
Change between voiceless: Greek: Pater, Macedonin: Tate.
Changes between dentals: English :Thorn, German: Dorn.

etc.

I don't think that there is a possible change from M>B. There is no such change attested.

[Homer MakeDonski]

I don't think that there is a possible change from M>B. There is no such change attested.

Than what do we have to think about this record what I've posted previously.

Changes of M, esp. in dialects:

2. into B,
as Mεμβράς ,Bεμβράς; Bροτός, Aeol. Mορτός ( v.άμβροτος fin.) and άBροτάξομεν for (from άMαρτάνω) ; μολєίν aor. of. βλώσκω ; κυBєρνήτης , Aeol. κυMєρνήτης ...1
______________
Ref.

1-Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott “Greek-English Lexicon” ,London,1896… page.953

[Bratot]

In the case of Mrmori - Brbori we can testify it's relation since both words have the same/simmilar meaning but still being separate in its usage.

Macedonian vs German : http://www.makedonisch.info/index.ap...BE%D1%80%D0%B8


Both Mrmori and Brbori are Sanskrit derivats.

Marmara = Murmur = Mrmori (mk)

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=marmara&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes

Barbara = Stammering = Brbori (mk)

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&tinput=barbara&country_ID=&trans=Translate&direction=SE

Barbara fem. proper name, from L., fem. of barbarus "strange, foreign, barbarous," from Gk. barbaros (see barbarian).
barbarian 1338, from M.L. barbarinus, from L. barbaria "foreign country," from Gk. barbaros "foreign, strange, ignorant," from PIE base *barbar- echoic of unintelligible speech of foreigners (cf. Skt. barbara- "stammering," also "non-Aryan"). Barbaric is first recorded 1490, from O.Fr. barbarique, from L. barbaricus "foreign, strange, outlandish." Barbarous is first attested 1526.
Barbary c.1300, "foreign lands" (especially non-Christian lands," from L. barbarus "barbarous" (see barbarian). Meaning "Saracens living in coastal North Africa" is attested from 1596, via Fr. (O.Fr. Barbarie), from Arabic Barbar, Berber, ancient Arabic name for the inhabitants of N.Africa beyond Egypt. Perhaps a native Arabic word, from barbara "to babble confusedly,"
which may be ult. from Gk. barbaria (see barbarian). "The actual relations (if any) of the Arabic and Gr[eek] words cannot be settled; but in European langs. barbaria, Barbarie, Barbary, have from the first been treated as identical with L. barbaria, Byzantine Gr[eek] barbaria land of barbarians" [OED].

sources:

http://books.google.pl/books?id=PzQxel1GueUC&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=marmar+sanskrit&source=bl&ots=QxRB7YlkHg&sig=f7jAPKmmWVsCQ23-FEYUVsdqjng&hl=pl&ei=-ClyTNa-GMKoOI_6-LAL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=murmur&f=false

http://books.google.pl/books?id=yn8MXyF7J4UC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=marmara+sanskrit&source=bl&ots=i1z35yt-tq&sig=EDj8FZJWsbwPdcZwkeZvi_pkVsA&hl=pl&ei=ICpyTNn3EtGTOKLWxLAL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=marmara%20sanskrit&f=false

http://books.google.pl/books?id=8KFPBl9lLRcC&pg=PA791&lpg=PA791&dq=marmara+sanskrit&source=bl&ots=5NSA9UkkcO&sig=9oCroj66Wn2-HNyDpcofGcKFI_o&hl=pl&ei=ICpyTNn3EtGTOKLWxLAL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=murmur&f=false

Mrmori is also noted as old slavonic word:

http://essja.narod.ru/pdf/20/essja_20_250-251.pdf

There is also another simmilar Sanskrit word - Balbala = Blabla = stammering, shuttering.

http://books.google.pl/books?id=8KFPBl9lLRcC&pg=PA791&lpg=PA791&dq=marmara+sanskrit&source=bl&ots=5NSA9UkkcO&sig=9oCroj66Wn2-HNyDpcofGcKFI_o&hl=pl&ei=ICpyTNn3EtGTOKLWxLAL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=stammer&f=false

[makedonin]

Than what do we have to think about this record what I've posted previously.

That is Greek as far as I can tell. I don't know of any common change like that in Macedonian, be it medevial or modern. I exclude ancient Macedonian, cause there are not enough sources to start research like that.

The M>B change in Greek as you have posted there, might be real, I can't tell anything about it.
I know of β(B in ancient)>μπ(B in modern) shift. If that can be transvered with out further coloboration to Macedonian in general, I have my doubts there.

If we would use the modern or medevial transcription to write Bog with those characters, it would have been μπογ or μπωγ. If we are to write with ancient transcription most probably it would have been βογ or βωγ.

Using the medevial or modern transcription to explain some assumption for ancient transcription is asynchronus and non valid.

In the case of Mrmori - Brbori we can testify it's relation since both words have the same/simmilar meaning but still being separate in its usage.

Bratot that is a interesting case, I haven't thought of it, thanx for pointing out. There are three burning questions here:

1) Weather Mrmori and Brbori come from the same stem, despite their medevial and modern similar meaning. Can we prove that?
2) If they are from the same stem, when the shift from B to M occured on the time line? In other words, if this change is modern or can be attested and seen at least in medevial times.
3) Is this a isolated or common case.

I can't answear any of those questions.

[Bratot]

Bratot that is a interesting case, I haven't thought of it, thanx for pointing out. There are three burning questions here:

1) Weather Mrmori and Brbori come from the same stem, despite their medevial and modern similar meaning. Can we prove that.

Having on mind the structure MRM=BRB yes, we can.
It's a simple as it looks like.

2) If they are from the same stem, when the change occured. In other words, if this change is modern or can be attested and seen at least in medevial times.

Since both are Sanskrit - PIE words we can firmly say the "change" has occured in very ancient times.

Sanskrit is a member of the Indo-Iranian sub-family of the Indo-European family of languages. Its closest ancient relatives are the Iranian languages Old Persian and Avestan.[9] Within the wider Indo-European language family, Sanskrit shares characteristic sound changes with the Satem languages (particularly the Slavic and Baltic languages), and also with Greek.[10]

If we start playing with Sanskrit words we can really testify the very ancient origin even of our modern speech.

Simple example:

The Sanskrit verbal adjective saṃskṛta- may be translated as "put together", "well or completely formed", "refined", "highly elaborated".[7] It is derived from the root saṃ(s)kar- "to put together, compose, arrange, prepare",[8] where saṃ- "together" (as English same) and (s)kar- "do, make". The language referred to as saṃskṛta "the cultured language" has by definition always been a "sacred" and "sophisticated" language, used for religious and learned discourse in ancient India, and contrasted with the languages spoken by the people, prākṛta- "natural, artless, normal, ordinary".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

I think I don't have to explain the exact meaning of SAM - ShKRTA / Сам Шкрта.
English - Macedonian translation:
Sam = by oneself/myself/sole
ShKRTA = Scraw

http://rechnik.on.net.mk/

Sanskrit = Samskrta = I'm writing = Jas/Sam Shkrtam

3) Is this a isolated or common case.

I can't answear any of those questions.

The wide usage of both brbori and mrmori for describing the very simmilar usage is a strong enough evidence.

I hope this helped you a bit.

In later days will try to add some accademic additional sources for this, it may take a time for me to provide it but I hope to find a time for it.

[makedonin]

It appears that brbori is form

Proto IE: bal-bal-
IE: bar-bar-
Meaning: babbling, unclear speech

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/PokornyMaster-R.html

Mrmori most probably comes from:

Proto IE: mormor-, murmur-
Meaning: to murmur

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/PokornyMaster-R.html

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=murmur

It does not appear that both are from the same stem, at least according to Pokorny.

[Bratot]

You are not paying attention to the sources I already posted.

And you missed the example in your link:

748-49 mormor-, murmur- > to murmur

or

murmur (n.)
late 14c., "expression of discontent by grumbling," from O.Fr. murmure (12c.), noun of action from murmurer, from L. murmurare, from murmur (n.) "a hum, muttering, rushing," probably from a PIE reduplicative base *mor-mor, of imitative origin (cf. Skt. murmurah "crackling fire," Gk. mormyrein "to roar, boil," Lith. murmlenti "to murmur"). Meaning "softly spoken words" is from 1670s. The verb is first attested late 14c. Related: Murmured; murmuring.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=murmur

[Bratot]

Etymology

From Middle English murmur, murmor, murmour, from Old French murmure (modern French murmur), from Latin murmur (“murmur, humming, mutering, roaring, growling, rushing etc.”). Reduplication points to imitative, onomatopoeic origin; compare Sanskrit मर्मर (marmara, “rustling sound, murmur”), Ancient Greek μορμύρω (mormúrō, “to roar, boil”) and Lithuanian mùrmėti (“to mutter, murmur, babble”).


Century Dictionary, Vol. V, Page 3902, Murk to Murre

[makedonin]

You are not paying attention to the sources I already posted.

Sorry about that, I was on it, while you posted.

And you missed the example in your link:

748-49 mormor-, murmur- > to murmur

or

murmur (n.)
late 14c., "expression of discontent by grumbling," from O.Fr. murmure (12c.), noun of action from murmurer, from L. murmurare, from murmur (n.) "a hum, muttering, rushing," probably from a PIE reduplicative base *mor-mor, of imitative origin (cf. Skt. murmurah "crackling fire," Gk. mormyrein "to roar, boil," Lith. murmlenti "to murmur"). Meaning "softly spoken words" is from 1670s. The verb is first attested late 14c. Related: Murmured; murmuring.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=murmur

But bar bar and murmur from the http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...yMaster-R.html are two different stems, at least according to Pokorny. That is a problem for all other investigation to prove that M<>B shift is possible.

[Bratot]

Can you explain one "stem" in order I could know what are you looking for when investigating the 'stems' and concluding either they are or aren't same?

You can not date a shift in a sound, you may not prove anything in linguistics if you stick to your approach.

Barbara = Marmara = Brbori = Mrmori

[Homer MakeDonski]

Regarding m-b changes will post some more examples ,what I have saved from a no more existing post at some of the world-wide forums.

A description of the comparative phonology
of the North Caucasian languages.
Sergei Starostin

...In the above table we only list the reflexes of the resonants *w and *m in initial and medial positions without the combinations with other consonants; the behaviour of such combinations will be specially considered below (see pp. 62-72). But there is one more type of cases, namely the modification of initial *w, *m and *b under the influence of following syllable-final resonants *n, *m and *l. One may note that in nominal NC roots variations of initial m,w,n and b occur very frequently. These variations up to now were either not explained at all, or were explained by the interchange of "petrified" class markers.

...It is also necessary to make some more particular remarks about the behaviour of labial consonants in separate languages:

1) Lak regularly drops initial syllables with nasal m- (and also with b- < *w-) and subsequent narrow vowels i, u (about the similar process in Lezghian see below, page 127).

4) Besides the processes listed above, we must also mention the denasalisation *m- >*b- that regularly happens in PWC before the following syllable-final liquid *r and *l.

http://starling.rinet.ru/index.htm

[makedonin]

Can you explain one "stem" in order I could know what are you looking for when investigating the 'stems' and concluding either they are or aren't same?

You can not date a shift in a sound, you may not prove anything in linguistics if you stick to your approach.

Barbara = Marmara = Brbori = Mrmori

Here is how I approach this. In order to prove that there is sound shift such as M<>B, this should be done on the same word from the same stem.

Consider the simple case of P<>F sound shift in Greek: Pater, English: Father. The considered word has the same stem, same meaning, same origin. With that approach it is obvious and proven that the P<>F shift is real occurance.

bar bar and murmur from the http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...yMaster-R.html are not the same stem and obviously they did not had the same meaning at the beginning, that is why we can't consider it as prove of M<>B sound change. They may have got same or similar meaning over time, but the basis is not the same, thus no proof of sound change.

I hope, I am clear about it. I don't want to start a war here. What I want is solid proof for what is claimed, other than that we end up as wannabe and propagandists.

[Homer MakeDonski]

A final point of comparison requires a brief examination of the linguistics involved; specifically, the labial letters — b - w - m - p — the phonemes which are pronounced especially with the lips. In different dialects within the larger language family, words containing these phonemes differ in pronunciation. A modern example of labial shifts is found in the name of the Korean city which is now pronounced Busan instead of Pusan. An example from antiquity was the word for sun and the sun-god. In Hebrew it was Shemesh (cf., the town of Beth-Shemesh, the town of the temple of the sun-god). The Akkadian pronunciation differed only in vowels to produce Shamash. In Canaanite, however, this word was pronounced Shapsh (or Shapash if fully vocalized), i.e., the middle consonant simply shifted from an M to a P. I believe that the same phonetic shift occurred between the names of the heroes of these two epics, which phonetically at least, are the same. The M in Hebrew Adam has shifted to the final P in Akkadian,...4
______________
4-W. H. Shea. 1977. Adam in ancient Mesopotamian traditions. Andrews University Seminary Studies 15:27-42.

http://www.grisda.org/origins/18010.htm

[Bratot]

Linguistic root:

This distinction between the word as a unit of speech and the root as a unit of meaning is even more important in the case of languages where roots have many different forms when used in actual words, as is the case in Semitic languages.
In these, roots are formed by consonants alone, and different words (belonging to different parts of speech) are derived from the same root by inserting vowels. For example, in Hebrew, the root gdl represents the idea of largeness, and from it we have gadol and gdola (masculine and feminine forms of the adjective "big"), gadal "he grew", higdil "he magnified" and magdelet "magnifier", along with many other words such as godel "size" and migdal "tower".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_(linguistics)

The production of the sound -B and -M can vary in a dialect only for a speciic word.

We have such example with Jaglen - Vaglen which I explained on other thread.

[Homer MakeDonski]

I hope, I am clear about it. I don't want to start a war here. What I want is solid proof for what is claimed, other than that we end up as wannabe and propagandists.

I do appreciated your contribution bro. To me this is not starting war question,propaganda nether .Solid prove is what we need.
About your point of Pater-Father ,something else shell be mentioned .Both of these words are o.k. Padre as Latin loan included.
If we split these words we can find out neologism's Pa/Tera -Fa/Tera.
If Tera -earth ,than question will be , what the word Pa is standing for ?
My answer is Pa is a district of Ma .
Again back to the subject .