The Ancient Macedonian Language

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15660

    #61
    Just an odd thought ... if we are to assume Philip means "lover of horses", and I don't ... what are the chances of a translated name in Macedonian such as Milkon. As an example, someone quite dear to me was born and named as Slobodanka but modern oppressive societies in Greece ensured she was referred to as Eleftheria. Both meaning "Freedom" in Macedonian vs Greek.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • osiris
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1969

      #62
      good post napoleon we may never know exactly how the surviving ancient names were pronounced by their native speakers as all we have now are the greek versions. i remember seeing the persian version of darius and its very different enough to not be recognizable as darius. what always amuses me is when greeks borrow and in the greek case its half of their vocabularyit doesnt matter and it is meaningless, but if anyother nation borrows from the greeks its conclusive proof of greekness.

      surely if greek was as influential as they mainatian it would naturally impact linguistically and culturally on other people just as egypt and phoenicia did on greece, but i dont see any egyptian or lebanese claiming anything as theirs, while modern wanabees claim everything and anything rgardless of its origins.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13675

        #63
        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
        Just an odd thought ... if we are to assume Philip means "lover of horses", and I don't ... what are the chances of a translated name in Macedonian such as Milkon. As an example, someone quite dear to me was born and named as Slobodanka but modern oppressive societies in Greece ensured she was referred to as Eleftheria. Both meaning "Freedom" in Macedonian vs Greek.
        Interesting suggestion RTG, I am not sure if it would have been applied in the ancient era, but then again, we can't know for certain either way.

        The Thracian Pulpudeva produces some interesting information also, 'dava' and 'deva' are common suffixes of Thracian placenames, which are very similar to 'ovo', 'evo', 'ova' and 'eva' in Slavic.

        Thacian toponyms found in the Balkans and beyond the Danube:

        Pulpudeva, Zisnudeva, Cumudeva, Markodava, Pelendova, Giridava, Sucidava, Predava

        Slavic toponyms, hydronyms, personal names and surnames found in the Balkans and beyond the Danube:

        Kicevo, Brezovo, Tetovo, Trnava, Bratislava, Morava, Petreva, Mileva, Borislav, Voislava.


        It seems that at some point the 'd' in 'deva' was dropped where now it is present as 'eva' and 'ava', and in other variants such as ovo, ova and evo.

        In Slavic, the 'eva' suffix is reserved largely for female surnames, such as Petreva, Mileva, Gorgieva, etc. The 'ev' and 'ov' suffixes are common from Russia to Macedonia, this is a purely Slavic suffix.

        There are no other linguistic groups that use such suffixes except the Slavic-speakers, who live exactly where the Thracians of the ancient period had existed. There can be no doubt that the Thracian language is related to the Balto-Slavic linguistic group, our language has ancient roots.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • I of Macedon
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 222

          #64
          Correct me if i'm wrong but I thought I read somewhere that the true form in macedonian in ancient times of Philips name specifically 'PH' is 'B'
          No need to sit in the shade, because we stand under our own sun

          Comment

          • osiris
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1969

            #65
            its true in macedonian it was pronounced as billip not phillip.

            Comment

            • Demos
              Banned
              • Dec 2008
              • 325

              #66
              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              Most of the following names do not appear to be used prior to the reign of the ancient Macedonians, although I haven't researched extensively, so if anybody can shed some more information please do.
              • Phillip
              • Parmenion
              • Attalus
              • Nicanor
              • Philotas
              • Bolon
              • Antigonus
              • Antioch
              • Seleucus
              • Cassander
              • Lysimachus
              • Amyntas
              • Berenika
              • Alexander (Apparently used alternatively with Paris by Homer)
              All these names have Greek etymology. Some of these names are just two Greek words combined like Phillipos, Alexandros, Lysimachus, Antigonus. You cannot get more Greek than this.

              The Romans which were clearly another nation and spoke Latin had Latin names and their names did not have Greek etymology or meaning in Greek.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13675

                #67
                Originally posted by Demos View Post
                All these names have Greek etymology. Some of these names are just two Greek words combined like Phillipos, Alexandros, Lysimachus, Antigonus. You cannot get more Greek than this.

                The Romans which were clearly another nation and spoke Latin had Latin names and their names did not have Greek etymology or meaning in Greek.
                Read the whole thread as your comments above are addressed earlier, there are some interesting discussions also that you need to address which are in relation to what you wrote above. We wont be repeating ourselves for you anymore.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • TrueMacedonian
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 3823

                  #68
                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  Most of the following names do not appear to be used prior to the reign of the ancient Macedonians, although I haven't researched extensively, so if anybody can shed some more information please do.
                  • Phillip
                  • Parmenion
                  • Attalus
                  • Nicanor
                  • Philotas
                  • Bolon
                  • Antigonus
                  • Antioch
                  • Seleucus
                  • Cassander
                  • Lysimachus
                  • Amyntas
                  • Berenika
                  • Alexander (Apparently used alternatively with Paris by Homer)
                  I think I have three more names to add;

                  Cleopatra
                  Monime
                  Stratonice

                  Comment

                  • Serdarot
                    Member
                    • Feb 2010
                    • 605

                    #69
                    Tevda
                    Tevdo

                    or ancient version

                    TeUta
                    TeUto

                    btw, is anyone here aware that "Ante" in several versions is massive used in the Macedonian Antropological Onomastikon?


                    Ante
                    Anto
                    Anton
                    Andon
                    Andre
                    Sande
                    (ka)Sandre

                    etc, etc...

                    to laught on the ignorance of our southern neighbors - you can NOT get more Macedonian than that, couse Ant-E.

                    I realy feel sorry for those between you who don´t understand Macedonian VERY GOOD.

                    When you learn Makedonski, you will understand the meaning of "E".
                    Bratot:
                    Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13675

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Serdarot
                      Ante
                      Anto
                      Anton
                      Andon
                      Andre
                      Sande
                      (ka)Sandre

                      etc, etc...
                      Serdarot, most of the above names are also used by others.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Homer MakeDonski
                        Member
                        • Jan 2010
                        • 103

                        #71
                        Originally posted by TerraNova View Post
                        I m sure if you dig deeper in Macedonian soil,you ll find some Goran, Zlatko and Stoiko ....

                        Oh those ancient Macedonians...were identical to you...
                        No need for soil digging.
                        Enough is if only we do correct letters deviation researches into the names itself
                        Ex.
                        Name of Antigon Gonata
                        Antigon reading from right to left
                        *nogitna
                        *Negotna
                        Negotino
                        - city in R.of Macedonia
                        Gonata reading from right to left
                        *Atanog
                        there is something called sibilarization, involving shift of ''k'', ''g'' and ''h'' into alveolar ''c'', ''z'' and ''s'' in front of ''e'' and ''i''
                        and Third (aka second sibilarization), involving shift of ''k'', ''g'', ''h'' into ''c'', ''z'', ''s'' ''after'' ''e'', ''i'' and ''a''.
                        Because case is that we have Gonata ->*Atanog
                        *Atanag
                        according to second sibilarization
                        g->z
                        *Atanag
                        *Atanaz
                        And here we are
                        Atanaz
                        ez. in todays Macedonian is reading in the word exit
                        exit or izlez
                        and the verb - to walk out -izleguvanje
                        izleZ
                        izleGuva


                        Atanaz
                        z-s
                        Atanas

                        So fare Antigon Gonata or Negotino Atanas
                        should be read as
                        Atanas of Negotino
                        parallel is
                        Aleksandar or Philip of Macedon as historical references telling us about .
                        Conclusion:
                        Instead of your os/us suffixed adds at Antigone Gonata presented his name as "Antigonus" and himself strait as Greek
                        (Good Lord,not even as Helen ),you have to face letters deviation trough millenniums
                        If you don't you are about to be accounted as Nobelist .
                        Last edited by Homer MakeDonski; 08-15-2010, 12:09 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13675

                          #72
                          HM,

                          The name Athanasios comes from the Hellenic word 'athanatos' (immortal), which ultimately derives from 'thanatos' (death). This name became widespread as a result of Christianity, which is probably where later Macedonian versions appear as Atanas, Tanase, Nase, etc.

                          Although palatalization can assist in explaining some likely cognates, I think there is another characteristic that features as the main factor in examples such as 'negotino'. Over time, Macedonian seems to have developed a feature of 'letter re-arrangement'. For example, from Greek to Macedonian, there is Antigonea -> Negotino, and Megalo -> Golemo, within Macedonian dialects there is Kade -> Deka. The definitive article suffix may also result from this feature, if examples such as the following are accepted: To dete -> Deteto.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15660

                            #73
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            Although palatalization can assist in explaining some likely cognates, I think there is another characteristic that features as the main factor in examples such as 'negotino'. Over time, Macedonian seems to have developed a feature of 'letter re-arrangement'. For example, from Greek to Macedonian, there is Antigonea -> Negotino, and Megalo -> Golemo, within Macedonian dialects there is Kade -> Deka. The definitive article suffix may also result from this feature, if examples such as the following are accepted: To dete -> Deteto.
                            These are very reasonable assumptions.
                            I hope you might be able to look into this a little more for us SoM.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • Pelister
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2742

                              #74
                              Isn't it interesting how a word spelt backwards can mean the same thing.

                              nogitna
                              *Negotna

                              I want to believe that this is how it happened. If Macedonians spelt their words right to left like other ancient people, and Greeks left to right perhaps it explains some things in the transliteration.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13675

                                #75
                                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                                These are very reasonable assumptions.
                                I hope you might be able to look into this a little more for us SoM.
                                Risto, I intend to, there are also other examples that can be demonstrated which produce some revealing results.

                                One of the most significant distinctions between the Hellenic and Paleo-Balkan linguistic groups is the development of Proto Indo-European aspirated consonants bh, dh and gh. In Hellenic, they develop as unvoiced consonants:

                                bh -> ph (φ)
                                dh -> th (θ)
                                gh -> kh (χ)

                                However, Macedonian, Thracian, Illyrian, Paeonian and Phrygian, which are Paleo-Balkan languages, take a different path of development, where the aspirated consonant largely becomes a voiced stop. It is significant to point out that the Baltic and Slavic languages adopted the same sound change as the Paleo-Balkan languages:

                                bh -> b (β)
                                dh -> d (δ)
                                gh -> g (γ)

                                All of these differences generate changes in pronounciation, as indicated in the below comparison of cognates between the two opposing linguistic groups along with the modern Macedonian and Hellenic languages.

                                [Branch, rod] - γάρκαν, garkan (Anc. Maced.) -> granka (Mod. MK)
                                [Branch, rod] - χάραξ - kharax (Anc. Attic) -> (?) ravdos (Mod. GK)

                                [To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> βερε, bere (Anc. Maced.) -> bere (Mod. MK)
                                [To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> φερε, phere (Anc. Attic) -> fere (Mod. GK)

                                [To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Murderer] - δανῶν, danon (Anc. Maced.) -> [Drowned or Strangled] - udaven (Mod. MK)
                                [To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Dead] - θανών, thanon (Anc. Attic) -> [Death] - thanatos (Mod. GK)

                                Modern Hellenic generally displays the same characteristics as ancient Hellenic (ph/f, th, kh), however, modern Macedonian too displays the same characteristics as ancient Macedonian (b, d, g), at least where it concerns these words and consonants. This would therefore mean that the ancient Macedonians pronounced the name of their country as Μακεδονία with a hardened voiced stop d, just like in Macedonian today, and unlike either ancient or modern Hellenic sound laws which produce the th and dh consonants.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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