Origin of Romanian people and language

[Carlin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blachernae

- The Romanian philologist Ilie Gherghel, wrote a study about Blachernae and concluded that it possibly derived from the name of a Vlach (sometimes written as Blach or Blasi), who came to Constantinople from the lower Danube, a region named today Dobruja. Gherghel compared data from old historians like Genesios and from the Greek lexicon Suidas and mentioned the existence of a small colony of Vlachs in the area of today Blachernae. Similar opinions were sustained by Lisseanu.

- During the Byzantine Papacy, the portion of the Aventine overlooking the Greek quarter of Rome became known as the ad Balcernas or Blachernas.

[Carlin]

‘Codex Dimonie’ - Multi-page Vlach manuscript with religious content. The German ethnologist G. Weigand discovered it in 1889 in Ohrid. It was probably written in 1803. (The Greek alphabet is used.)

[Carlin]

Στη δεύτερη ομάδα (τέλη 18ου - αρχές 19ου αι.) κουτσοβλαχικών κειμένων ανήκουν τα έργα των Κ. Ουκούτα (‘Νέα Παιδαγωγία’, Βιέννη 1797), Γ.Κ. Ρόζια (‘Εξετάσεις περί των Ρωμαίων ή των ονομαζόμενων Βλάχων’, Πέστη, 1808 & ‘Τέχνη της ρωμανικής αναγνώσεως’, Βούδα, 1809), Μ. Μπογιατζή (‘Γραμματική Ρωμανική, ήτοι Μακεδονοβλαχική’, Βιέννη 1813) κ.α.

In the second group (late 18th - early 19th cent.) of the Vlach texts belong the works of K. Ukuta ('New Pedagogy', Vienna 1797), G.K. Rozia ("Examinations about the Romans (Romaioi) or the so-called Vlachs", Pest, 1808, M. Bogiatzi ('Romanic Grammar, that is Macedonovlach, Vienna 1813').

URL:

http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2017/12/ii.html

[Carlin]

Is this what Latin sounded like?

Latin Language Spoken Example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiLT29hDhag

Latin Orator Anne Power | Harvard Commencement 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ8n_Y6bJ_s

[Carlin]

zies Lune = dies Lunae in Moesia - 5th century AD

The following deals with the evolution of the Latin term diēs = "day" in the Eastern Balkan Romance (EBR) languages. If you look at the table below, you will notice that the 'change' di > dz (> z) appears only in the EBR languages.



When might have the EBR speakers begin to pronounce the the classic Latin term diēs with dz / z?

In a Latin inscription of the 5th century AD from Moesia (found in the present-day village of Stan in Bulgaria), the Latin term diēs appears twice as ziēs.

[Carlin]

Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area, by Elemér Illyés

First edition: East European Monographs, no. CCXLIX, 1988
Second (revised) edition: Hunyadi Öcs. MK., Hamilton, ON., Struktura Press, 1992

- "In 271, Emperor Aurelian finally ordered the evacuation of Dacia. After the evacuation the lower Danube became once again the northern frontier of the Roman Empire. A total evacuation of Dacia, as reported by Eutropius, would hardly have been possible. It must be assumed, even in the absence of evidence, that a part of the local population remained in Dacia. However, the army, the entire administrative machinery, and with them also the business people, landholders, and aristocracy — in other words those whose interests were related to the Roman Empire, those who were the actual instruments of Romanization and who could have been the disseminators of the Latin language — left the province.

Concurrently with the evacuation of Dacia two new provinces, to the south of the Danube, were created for the evacuated population; Dacia Ripensis (part of Moesia Superior in the valley of the Timok) and Dacia Mediterranea (part of Dardania, the present-day eastern Serbia and western Bulgaria) with the principal fortresses of Naissus (Nis) and Serdica (modern Sofia)."



- "Dio Cassius (150-235 A.D.) mentioned that people allied with King Decebal had sent a message written in the Latin alphabet to Trajan in 101 A.D. Some 50,000 Dacians during the reign of Augustus (63 B.C. to 14 A.D.) and 100,000 "Transdanubians" during the rule of Nero (37 to 68 A.D.) were settled south of the Danube."

[Carlin]

When we look at the data on Roman legions and expenses, we come to the fact that a huge number of them were in the territory of the Balkans. In the middle of the 2nd century, there were 9 legions along the Danube; in the western part, Dalmatia and Pannonia, as many as 6:


This means that almost a third of the entire army of the Roman Empire lay on the Danube. Pay attention to the cost of the Danube in the 2nd century, when the calculation is made after all revenues and losses:


For the Roman Empire in the 2nd century of our era, the Balkans caused a loss of about a hundred million sesterces. Or, the deficit for the Balkans was almost three times higher than Britain and Gaul combined.

The information we have about the deployment of military forces, colonies, and what we know about the later period indicates that the Balkans were probably one of the regions with an extremely high degree of romanization (speaking even before the time of Caracalla).

[Soldier of Macedon]

You’ve referenced authors who wrote about Roman settlements in the Balkans, yet nobody denies that Roman colonists settled in many Macedonian, Thracian and Illyrian towns after they brutally occupied the region. What you need to do is demonstrate the direct connection between those Roman colonists (in the Balkan areas south of Romania) and the modern Vlachs (who inhabit similar areas today). You can start by providing your opinion on the following:

- The Vlach and Romanian languages share many similar sound changes that evolved from Vulgar Latin. Given the distance between Macedonia (and areas further south and west) to Romania, how, when and where do you believe this occurred?

- The Vlach and Romanian languages share many similar words with Albanian. Many scholars have opined that this is a shared substratum, possibly from an indigenous Balkan language. How, when and where do you believe this occurred?

- To what extent is this supposed substratum related to any indigenous Balkan language?

I will address some of the other things you've posted in this thread in due course. But for now, these three questions will suffice.

[Carlin]

- What you need to do is demonstrate the direct connection between those Roman colonists (in the Balkan areas south of Romania) and the modern Vlachs (who inhabit similar areas today).

- The Vlach and Romanian languages share many similar sound changes that evolved from Vulgar Latin. Given the distance between Macedonia (and areas further south and west) to Romania, how, when and where do you believe this occurred?

- The Vlach and Romanian languages share many similar words with Albanian. Many scholars have opined that this is a shared substratum, possibly from an indigenous Balkan language. How, when and where do you believe this occurred?

- To what extent is this supposed substratum related to any indigenous Balkan language?

1) I feel like this question is something along the following lines, if I may:

You’ve referenced authors who wrote about Roman settlements in Spain, yet nobody denies that Roman colonists settled in many Spanish towns after they brutally occupied the region. What you need to do is demonstrate the direct connection between those Roman colonists and the modern Spanish-speakers (who inhabit similar areas today).

Just like the modern Spanish-speakers were formed and developed as a result of Roman rule and civilization (as well as Catalans or Galicians), the same way "Vlachs" were formed in the Balkans as a result of long Roman rule and civilization, and Latin language.

2) The Proto-Vlach languages (if you will) were most likely formed on either side of the river Danube, including regions and areas such as modern Bulgaria and Serbia. Prior to the coming of the Slavs, 'Latin' was the official language across the entire Balkan peninsula for many centuries. The processes of how and when were likely the same/similar on either side of Danube, and took place over many centuries during Roman rule and domination. The local native populations used (vulgar) Latin as a lingua franca of sorts. Let's not forget Via Egnatia which runs across Macedonia and adjacent regions, which was constructed in order to link a chain of Roman colonies stretching from the Adriatic Sea to the Bosphorus.

I believe I have read it although I may be wrong, there is one argument which states that the proto-Romance element/language in the Balkans was formed in the Nish-Sofia-Skopje triangle region.

3) The list of similar words of Albanian is possibly a result of 'contact' with Albanian-speakers - words which were then transmitted across the entire area where Romance-speakers were present (the 'contact' could have occured south or north of Danube, anything is possible, and I don't have a strong opinion about it; I have actually read theories that this list of shared words with Albanian is actually a case against Romanians being autochthonous in Dacia. The experts do not agree and there are at least a couple / few theories in play).

4) We don't know much about this supposed substratum language. Any discussion would be pure speculation. Vlach and Romanian languages are simply eastern Romance languages.

Some of it could be coincidental independent linguistic developments. For example (an interesting example to illustrate), Sardinian and Romanian/Vlach share some sound changes that are absent, or at least non-standard, in the other Romance languages.

For example, "l" has partly shifted to "r" when next to another consonant: Romanian vreau "I want" (< volo), Sardinian abru "white" (< albu-). Also, the labiovelar sounds "qu" and "gu" have become "p"/"b": Sardinian abba "water" (< aqua), limba "language/ tongue" (< lingua), Romanian apa "water", limba "tongue"/"language".

These are probably parallel developments in Sardinian and Romanian - and not evidence of an especially close relation between the two languages or peoples.

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/similarity-between-sardinian-and-romanian.3044669/

In general, I don't have a "decided" opinion either way about Vlachs being autochthones in Macedonia or Thessaly, or whether they came from the north. I guess anything is possible, but I currently subscribe to the Romance element also being "native" south of the Danube incl. Macedonia for reasons outlined above, as well as (I should add) that first historical references to Vlachs, Vlach language or Vlachia territories were all south of the Danube, and not in Dacia.

(Note: I'm not saying the Romanians were not present in Dacia, all I'm saying is that "Vlachs" existed south of the Danube as well.)

[Carlin]

Magyars, Mongols, Romanians and Saxons: population mix and density in Moldavia, from 1230 to 1365

Robin Baker

The years immediately preceding the Mongol invasion of the territory of the later Moldavian Principality in 1241 saw an influx of Magyar and Saxon settlers to the area. The Mongol onslaught brought this to an abrupt end and ushered in a period of more than a century of which we have little firm knowledge.

In this article the author suggests answers to the central questions how absolute was the destruction wrought by the Mongols, when did resettlement begin, and when did the Hungarian Kingdom re-assert its authority in the territory.

URL:

https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/view/2793/2817

[Carlin]

In French only.

Photice—Colonie romaine en Thesprotie et les déstinées de la latinité épirote

M. Hatzopoulos

URL:

https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/view/2005/2027

After discussing some methodological problems concerning the study of the Latin speaking populations of the Greek lands, the author examines
the case of the Roman colony of Photice : its foundation, its linguistic character as revealed in the inscriptions, the persistence of bilingualism throughout the period of Late Antiquity and finally the migration of its population to the mountain fastness of the Zagori area, where Vlach speaking people are still to be found.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Carlin]

INTRODUCTION TO THE ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE ROMANIAN LANGUAGE:

https://limbaromana.org/en/introduction-to-the-etymological-dictionary-of-the-romanian-language/

The French historian Arbois de Jubainville (1889-1894), citing the Roman writer Eusebius Pamphilius, shows that Osco-Umbrians migrated from the Upper Danube River into the Italian Penninsula, around 1200-1300 BC. We may assume that at that time the Thraco-Dacian, Illyrian, Italic, and Celtic tribes were speaking similar dialects, judging by some historical and linguistic data. About the same time, the Dorians (a Thraco-Illyrian tribe) migrated into Greece. They became Greek speakers, but kept some phonological features of their original language. The Dorian dialect and other Western and Northern Greek dialects have labialized the Proto-Indo-European labiovelars (as did Thraco-Illyrian, Osco-Umbrian, and Continental Celtic), unlike the Ionian dialect which did not.

Thus, PIE *kwetwor ‘four’ > Dorian Greek péttares, Lesbian péttures, as well as Homeric Greek písures, are forms influenced by Thraco-Illyrian, but Ionian Greek téttares. Furthermore, the Roman writer Marcus Antonius, a Celt from Gaul, says that Gaulish and Osco-Umbrian have a common origin (cf. A. de Jubainville, 1894), in other words, Oscans and Umbrians were offshoots of the Celts. He lived in 1st century BC, and he was a native speaker of Gaulish, being able to see similarities between Gaulish and Osco-Umbrian which share some common features that make them different from Latin.

Regarding the Latino-Faliscans, archaeological evidence shows that they migrated from the Middle Danube Valley, as the bearers of the Villanovan culture of Italy. Velleius Paterculus (11.100), an officer in the Roman army during the Roman-Pannonian war at the beginning of 1st century AD and Roman historian, tells us that “omnibus autem Pannonis non disciplinae tantum modo, sed linguae quoqoue notitia Romanae” (“all Pannonians have not only Roman (military) discipline, but they have also knowledge of Roman language”). The explanation of this apparently bizarre statement can be simply explained by the fact that the Romans’ ancestors migrated from this region about 1,500 years before.

[FoxTale]

I found this map, while browsing a map blog and think it could be of use to this thread. I wasn’t able to find the source of it though, reverse image searching just showed a bunch of generic map compilation sites.

[Amphipolis]

I found this map, while browsing a map blog and think it could be of use to this thread. I wasn’t able to find the source of it though, reverse image searching just showed a bunch of generic map compilation sites.

Greater Romania and Aromanian territories in the Balkans, ~1921.

https://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/141481027380/greater-romania-and-aromanian-territories-in-the

[Carlin]