Tsar Samoil and the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia

[TrueMacedonian]

Look kid I have just as much myth busting information on Buljarians than I do for the Albanians and modern 'greeks'. Don't waste my time with nonsense unless you have some sources to present me.

[DimitarP]

Well the thing is I don't have as much knowledge as you on the subject, so really it's not a time waste for me.

There are lots of people in bulgaria saying los of things and a lot of politics is involved, thats for sure... My personal opinion is that the statement that pure bulgarians exist is rediculous!

However as wikipedia generally is a poor source of info (as anyone can write anything without much supporting evidence), same goes for hisory written in a country with communist dictatorship (where no one can say anything that doesnt angree with the propaganda of the state).Basically I wouldn't draw conclusions from articles that have anything to do with communist bulgaria (1944-1989), unless I knew the authors personally and believed their professional expertise.

It's better to look up some modern international studies done within the EU.

[DimitarP]

In terms of the ethnic cleaning of bulgaria, organized by Zhivkov it resulted in about 300,000 ethnic turkish people leaving the country and never comming back, which resulted in economic hardship in the rhodopy mountain due to the loss of workforce. This was also performed at a time of economic crisis in the whole country in the late 1980's. That's a pretty barbaric style of governance, typical communist problem solving.

Currently there are about 10% turkish people and 5%gipsies.

[George S.]

The latest press releases say by 2050 the gypsies in bulgaria will take over.Perhaps Dimitri you will be around to discuss with them how much you love bulgaria.

[DimitarP]

Hmm, i doubt it...will see what happens.. May be the government will issue ban on the condoms lol..
Eventually bulgaria will join schengen, then the gypsies will pobably be all out on their way to france and germany..

[George S.]

I don't think the gypsies know what a condom is at the rate they are going they'll swamp bulgaria.You know no other country want's the gypsies as they all have been kicked out.I have got afeeling they might overspill into macedonia.At least they don't cause trouble like the albanians.The gypsies most of them don't work & all they do is screw day & nite so the product is more of them.

[DimitarP]

Hi George S, the gypsies don't have national identity i think (that's what gypsy means by definition). I guess that's what makes them different from the albanians. Hope Macedonia doesn't have to deal with nationalistic albanians because that would be scary. However they are well tolerated in Macedona aye? Not like in Serbia..

I went to Bulgaria last year. There were some ritch gypsies there, who were actually trying to mingle with the other people. However the other 99% of them live in some sort of ghetos. The public opinion is that they are thiefs and small grade criminals and basically stay isolated from the rest of the society. It would be terrible to be a gypsy in Bulgaria.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Dimitar, hopefully you won't allow the prevalent anti-Macedonian view of official Bulgarian policy to get in the way of your pursuit for knowledge. I agree with you regarding the lack of significance that the actual Bulgars have in today's Bulgarians, and would also argue that the Bulgarian label perpetuated more from precedence rather than ethno-linguistic connotation. Do you agree or disagree? Do you think that today's Bulgarians should be called something else, Thracians perhaps? Do you recognise a distinct Macedonian people?

[George S.]

Dimitar do you think the Bulgarian govt is going to do something with the gypsies???before it becomes a real problem.is it going to kick them out or simply take other means.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What do you mean by becoming a 'real problem' George? And what do you suggest as a solution to this 'problem'?

[George S.]

My concern was that I'm really equating it with the albanian problem we have.Are the Bulgarians going to follow the EU standard & give the gypsies their "rights" like the macedonians have done to the albaniansPresuming they are all Bulgarian citizens.Or are the Bulgarians going to give them the boot & dump them outside their borders.As Dimitar said that these gypsies are not a problem like the albanians it's more of a breeding problem.The issuing of condoms,etc rather than seats in parliament like the albanians.So really according to him it's not more than a population problem.

[Onur]

Which bolgars are you talking about? the ones in Balharia in south Russia, the ones in Volga Bulgaria, or Danube Bulgaria?

Generally speaking the Byzantine sources talk about bolgars and bulgarians ever since 7th century, so the name has remained but not the content..

There is no such a thing as "bOlgar". It`s a term invented by communist Russia about 60-80 years ago to indicate a difference between slavic speaking Bulgars in danube with the ones in around Volga who speaks Turkish. Probably not to piss you off, since Bulgarians were their vassals back then. Otherwise there would be a name issue between them now just like the current name issue with Greece and Macedonia. The name of these people in Volga is "bUlgar" with letter "U". So, there was no such a difference like "bolgar and bulgar" in medieval records of Byzantines.

"Bulgar" is the name of one of seven big Turkic tribes and you can find the name "Bulgar" listed as one of seven Turkic tribe in Jewish records of 2nd century AD. So, there was Turkish speaking Bulgars long before the foundation of danube Bulgaria.


I`ve posted several messages about this b4;

Bulgars in early medieval Jewish sources and Khan of Khazars tells the story of danube Bulgarians in a letter dated 950 AD, how and when they forced them to exile in to the danube from Volga region;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=50573&postcount=137

The findings and comments of Bulgarian Prof. Dr. Plamen S. Tzvetkov and his analysis about traces of early mediaval Turkic language in today`s slavic Bulgarian language;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=48042&postcount=133

Methodius of famous Cyril&Methodious brothers tells who were the real Bulgars and how they converted you to christianity in his own memoir written in 870 AD. Methodius talks about the seven Turkic tribes again(he says Hunnic, Huns) and he says that danube Bulgarians are one of them like the Khazars.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4276&highlight=bulgars

A cave in Basarabi from 890 AD, indicates a transition of people from Turkic language to old church slavonic;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4741

All these are for medieval Bulgars tough and as you said, currently there is no relation whatsoever between early Bulgars and current Bulgarians. I am talking about the philosophy and ideas of current Bulgarians, not about your DNA since it doesn't matter how much early Bulgar, Tatar blood you have. So, Bulgarians kinda hijacked the name Bulgars and using it atm.

But Turkic element was also present in 2. Bulgarian kingdom too, not only in first one. 2nd Bulgar kingdom was founded with the alliance of Turkic Cumans, Vlachs and the descendants of people from first Bulgar kingdom. You can read about it in this book;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=52110&postcount=25

[Onur]

Dimitar do you think the Bulgarian govt is going to do something with the gypsies???before it becomes a real problem.is it going to kick them out or simply take other means.

My guess is , they will prepare for another exodus of Turkish people from Bulgaria sooner or later. In 1989, they expelled about 350.000+ Turks and they tried to dump gypsies to Turkey among them too. Some gypsies managed to migrate in to Turkey in 1989 but many of them has been denied at the border. So, in 1989 Bulgarian government purposely encouraged Gypsies to go Turkey along with the Turks, just to dump them out from Bulgaria.

It shouldn't be surprise if they try to do the same in near future but i don't know how Turkey would react this time. In 1989, everything happened so quickly in few months. They ordered about 650.000 Turks to change their names to Olga, Dimitri etc in a day. Then people protested, started hunger strikes. They openly fired to protestors in the streets, killed some of them and they hanged some more in prisons and expelled rest to the Turkish border. Turkey wasn't prepared for that in 1989 but next time, things would be different. At least i am sure that they cant shoot or hang Turkish people like they did in 1989 otherwise we make them pay so hard now.

[Soldier of Macedon]

My concern was that I'm really equating it with the albanian problem we have.Are the Bulgarians going to follow the EU standard & give the gypsies their "rights" like the macedonians have done to the albanians......

Bulgaria's 'issues' with its Roma minority pale in comparison to Macedonia's volatile ethnic Albanian minority who have violated the sovereignty of the country in which they live. They had the same rights as the rest of Macedonia's minorities before they destabilised the state in 2000/2001. How many Roma have picked up a firearm against Bulgaria, or even Macedonia for that matter?

[George S.]

Som Fully agree on the uniqueness in macedonia.Onur thanks for commenting on the Bulgars & your'e right maybe they'l start expelling the gypsies.