Was Basil the Macedonian really Armenian???

[Risto the Great]

Is it a Macedonian hand SoM?
This is just getting far too complicated.

[Philosopher]

Slovaks and Slovenes. I cannot vouch for Slovene, but we Slovaks were not always called Slovaks. In fact, the name Slovak is of Polish origin, not even our own (same as Polak for themselves, from Polan). Before the 16th-17th century we called ourselves Sloveni or Slovieni (depending on dialect), which in most other Slavic languages means simply Slavs. In fact, we had to invent a new word for Slavs to make a distinction between ourselves and the other Slavic speakers, that is why we, and the Slovenes, use Slovania and Slovani, respectively, for the term Slavs.
However, only the masculine form of Slav in Slovak changed into slovák. All the other forms remained the same: slovenka (Slovak woman), slovenský (Slovak language), Slovensko (Slovakia).
For comparison, in Old Church Slavonic, the Slavs are called Словѣнє (Slověne), словѣньскъіи (slověnьskyjь).

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Slovak, you are missing the point of my post. Westerners, in their writings and in their speech, have the proclivity to use the word "Slav" or "Slavs" for all people who speek a slavic language category.

My point is that nations and people call themselves not merely Slavs but by their own national ethnic title; i.e. Macedonian, Serbian, Bulgarian, etc. It is true that the Macedonians will use the title Slavic Orthodox when referring to their religion and will refer to themselves as Slavs. And it is true that Slovaks are Slavs. But my point is that these nations are more than just Slavs; they are more than just a collective title that encompasse a blanket term.

When people use Slav as an ethnic definer it fails to differeniate individual nations; the term Slav does not tell us whether who the people spoken of are; thus, when historians say Basil was a Slav it doesn't really inform us of anything, because Slav could mean Russian, Polish, Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian, Macedonian, etc. Thus, it is too broad of an appellation unmeet for defining a specific nation state.

When historians want to properly define a Germanic person, they will not (as far as I'm aware, normally,) use the appellation Germanic; they will define the individual by their nation.

And to further clairify what I mean. The only true Arabs are Arabians; but when people refer to Lebanese and Algerians, they will call them Arabs, even though these people are not Arabs.

[Delodephius]

I know what your post was about. I drifted on to something else I wanted to point out. Anyhow, Slovaks and Slovenes would be the Slavs proper, because only to these does the term Slavs apply as you say "Arabs of Arabia".

The reason why Basil is called a Slav in my opinion is because Slavic speaking people are not differentiated enough in foreigners eyes, even I cannot tell the difference between Macedonians and Bulgarians, or Serbs, Montenegrins and Bosnians on certain levels, like culture and language, if we look at it broadly. Same way people have hard time telling difference between Slovaks and Czechs, or Russians, Ukrainians and Belorusians. The difference is lessened if we go back in time. To complicate things even further most Slavic speakers well into the 20th century were still referring to themselves in local geographic boundaries, and some still do, like the Gorani, Dalmatinci, Zagorci. And even further, the area of Balkan is not studied enough and even less represented in western science to make clear boundaries between tribal, ethnic and national groups.

Slavs is a linguistic term. Basil was a Slav means his native tongue was a Slavic language. That is from the modern perspective of things and usage of modern terminology. Now, what ethnicity was Basil?

[TrueMacedonian]

Here is another theory on Basil's supposed Armenian ancestry (which still may be true);



Mediaeval Greece By Nicolas Cheetham

[Soldier of Macedon]

Excellent TM, this confirms our earlier assertions and will come in very handy.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Slavs is a linguistic term. Basil was a Slav means his native tongue was a Slavic language. That is from the modern perspective of things and usage of modern terminology. Now, what ethnicity was Basil?

If anything could be considered an ethnicity back then, how would it be defined?

Southern Thrace was often identified with Macedonia and/or Macedonians during ancient and biblical times, and centuries later it appears to have become a centre for some Macedonians who travelled away from the rebellious enclaves of the 'Sclavinae' in Macedonia proper, and further east closer to Constantinople, prompting the creation of a new administrative unit in East Rome named the Macedonia Theme, which was centred around Adrianople. These factors need to be taken into consideration, especially the latter, as it is where Basil originates from.

If we look at the simple reality, Basil, the emperor of East Rome;

1) Came from a region known in his lifetime as Macedonian
2) Identified as a Macedonian
3) Was of a Slavic-speaking family

If we are to apply the logical interpretation of 'ethnicity', in the context of the ethnic groups that exist in the Balkan region today, how can he be anything other than a Macedonian?

[TrueMacedonian]

I have some more info on the supposed Armenian ancestry of Basil. Here is something his son Leo wrote about Basil;




and this;

page 190

[TrueMacedonian]

If anything could be considered an ethnicity back then, how would it be defined?

Southern Thrace was often identified with Macedonia and/or Macedonians during ancient and biblical times, and centuries later it appears to have become a centre for some Macedonians who travelled away from the rebellious enclaves of the 'Sclavinae' in Macedonia proper, and further east closer to Constantinople, prompting the creation of a new administrative unit in East Rome named the Macedonia Theme, which was centred around Adrianople. These factors need to be taken into consideration, especially the latter, as it is where Basil originates from.

If we look at the simple reality, Basil, the emperor of East Rome;

1) Came from a region known in his lifetime as Macedonian
2) Identified as a Macedonian
3) Was of a Slavic-speaking family

If we are to apply the logical interpretation of 'ethnicity', in the context of the ethnic groups that exist in the Balkan region today, how can he be anything other than a Macedonian?

Here's something that you should check out SoM;




A rarity in those times to actually point out ethnic groups.

[TrueMacedonian]

More on Basil's forged claims;

[TrueMacedonian]

If anything could be considered an ethnicity back then, how would it be defined?

Southern Thrace was often identified with Macedonia and/or Macedonians during ancient and biblical times, and centuries later it appears to have become a centre for some Macedonians who travelled away from the rebellious enclaves of the 'Sclavinae' in Macedonia proper, and further east closer to Constantinople, prompting the creation of a new administrative unit in East Rome named the Macedonia Theme, which was centred around Adrianople. These factors need to be taken into consideration, especially the latter, as it is where Basil originates from.

If we look at the simple reality, Basil, the emperor of East Rome;

1) Came from a region known in his lifetime as Macedonian
2) Identified as a Macedonian
3) Was of a Slavic-speaking family

If we are to apply the logical interpretation of 'ethnicity', in the context of the ethnic groups that exist in the Balkan region today, how can he be anything other than a Macedonian?

SoM this is from Theophanes;



Basil the Macedonians family may have originally settled in Solun, mixed with the aboriginals, and were forced to move to Adrianople. Just a theory using Theophanes.

[TRAVOLTA]

Basil the 2nd the 2nd Macedonian
Avtor: Axios Sobota, 15 III 2008 12:00.

.In relation to the presenting of famous personalities with Macedonian origin, in this issue we\'ll mention something about the members of the Macedonian dynasty that ruled wit Byzantine from 9th till the 11th century. A certain number of historians think that the members of the Macedonian dynasty in Byzantine were actually descendents of the ancient Macedonians. Among those historians is the author of these lines. To set down arguments in favour of his we should add certain additional explanations.
In the 8th century, on the territory of today\'s Trachea and in part of South Eastern Macedonia, Byzantine formed a thema (an administrative area), which it called "Macedonia". It is fi gured that this thema was named so because of the fact it was populated with a certain number of de¬scendents of ancient Macedonians. Later from their ranks the members of the Macedonian dynasty in Byzantine came from. This dynasty began with the emperor Basil the 1st of Macedonia (867-886), and ended in 1081. As an illustration of their Macedonian origin we will quote the Encarta Encyclopedia (quote from the work,title Basil I), where in relation to the origin of Basil the 1st we can read:

"Basil the 1st (812-886), a Byzantine Emperor (867-886) and founder of the Macedonian dynasty. He is born in Ma¬cedonia and originated from a peasant family (...)"•
In the famous "Compton Encyclopaedia" in relation to the founding of the Macedonian dynasty in Byzantine we can read:
"With the coronation of Basil the 1st the Macedonian in 867 the lengthy dy¬nasty of Macedonian emperors was es¬tablished" (Compton\'s Encyclopedia Online v3.0 © 1998 The Learning Com¬pany, Inc.).
In the Catholic Encyclopedia (1908) it is written that the members of this dynasty were from Armenia, but that they were of Macedonian ethnic origin.
("The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume III", Copyright © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight Nihil Obstat, November 1, 1908. Remy Lafort, S.T.D)

BASIL THE 2ND THE HE 2 MACEDONIAN

The most famous emperor of this dynasty was the emperor Basil the 2nd the Macedonian - the enemy of the medieval Macedonian emperor Samuel! Little is taught about these ethnic Macedonians in today\'s historiography from the aspect of their connection with the ancient Macedonian gene. Even the most famous representative of this dynasty, Basil the 2nd the Macedonian, in our historiography (probably rightly so), was taught strictly in a negative context as a "destroyer" of Samuel\'s Empire. After he conquered Samuel\'s Empire, it can be said that Basil the 2nd behaved towards the Macedonian population correctly.

For example, he left certain privileges to the clergy of the Ohrid archdiocese, and even in his time the monk Jovan from Debar was selected. Some of Samuel\'s dignitaries held their status, although they fought against Basil the 2nd. For the inadequate interest for the studying of these ethnic Macedonians in our historiography a contributing factor is the fact that they lived outside of the territory of ethnic Macedonia and ruled with another country (Byzantine). Actually it is the same case as with the Ptolemy, Macedonians who in their time ruled Egypt, as well as with the case of the Macedonian Seleucids, who ruled with the Eastern Mediterranean. We have the same situa¬tion with the reign of the Macedonian dynasty in Byzantine.

EVIDENCE FOR THEIR R MACEDONIAN ORIGIN

That these emperors have not forgotten their Macedonian ethnic origin a number of facts have shown. First, here is the name of their dynasty which is called "Macedonian".
Further more, in their time, in the Byzantine army an active role was played by the Macedonian phalange. It is known that the Byzantine emperor Constantine (brother and heir of Basil the 2nd the Macedonian) fought excellently with the long spire, as the Byzantine historian Michael Psel writes (1.14).
The Croatian historian D-r. Stjepan Antoljak ("Medieval Macedonia", Skopje,1985, page 212), calling upon the Byzantine historian Skilica, writes:
In the Byzantine army the Macedonian phalange was incorporated, as Skilica writes, in 1071 it participated in the pillaging of Samuel\'s capital Prespa".
So the Macedonian phalange within the composition of the Byzantine army fought against their own brothers- heirs of the Macedonian medieval empire, known trough history as Samuel\'s Empire.

There are other data from the time of Basil the 2nd, in which the Macedonians are mentioned as soldiers in his army. Some of them fought in southern Italy, in the then thema Langobardia. For one of these Macedonians it is known that he was from Stip! He was called Lav and was a high ranking commander of the Macedonian and Trachean units in the composition of the Byzantine army. D-r Stjepan Antoljak (quote work, page 206), in relation to this he writes:
"... then he was mentioned as a military commander of of the Macedonians and Tracheans the patrician Lav, who they called Stipion i.e. "Stipjanec".
This commander is also mentioned by Cons¬tantine Pfrofi rogenit".

The member of the Macedonian dynasty in Byzantine kept most of their tra¬ditional markings from their ancient Macedonian ancestors. It is known that the main markings of the ancient Mace¬donian emperors were: the colour of purple on there robes, sceptre and diadem. We have the same condition with the Byzantine emperors from the Macedonian dynasty! The poet Ivan Kiriotes, called Geometres, who was archbishop of Metilena in the 10th century, in his songs he sang about the events surrounding the rule of Basil the 2nd the Macedonian, and in one of them he clearly mentions (quote): "the royal sceptres and diadems, as well as purple robes", which the Byzantine emperors of the Macedonian dynasty wore, exactly as their ancestors did - the famous ancient Macedonians emperors ( Joannis Geometrae, J.P. Migne, PG 106, 919; quote according to D-r. Stjepan Antoljak, "The Medieval Macedonia", Skopje, 1985, page 242).

The Byzantine historian Michael Psel (1,31) describes the purple colour of the robes which Basil the 2nd wore.
Then even the saying "born in purple" existed, which referred to the emperors of the Macedonian dynasty.
Psel gives an interesting fact (3,8), in which he writes that the Byzantine emperor Roman the 3rd (1028-1034) of the Macedonian dynasty, wanted to imitate the great rulers, among which he mentions Alexander the Great of Macedonia.
Psel writes that this Byzantine emperor too, also dressed in purple robes (3,15), the same as ancient Macedonian emperors did.

http://www.veneti.info/articles-2/multilingua/english/other-articles/206-basil-the-2nd-the-2nd-macedonian

[Soldier of Macedon]

This is another example of a historical figure claiming mythical or unrealistic descent from other historical figures before them. All for the purpose of increasing their prestige by being identified with others that have achieved fame in their lives. No different to Alexander claiming to be descended from Heracles.

[Onur]

This is another example of a historical figure claiming mythical or unrealistic descent from other historical figures before them. All for the purpose of increasing their prestige by being identified with others that have achieved fame in their lives. No different to Alexander claiming to be descended from Heracles.

SOM, that was very common in medieval world, both in east and west. I think nearly all European societies claimed to be the descendants of Trojans. Also in eastern world, it was so common to claim to be a descendant of prophet Mohammed, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane etc.

Ofc most of these claims was just lies.

[The LION will ROAR]

Here is some further comments from Aleksandar Donski about Basil II I found on Facebook

Aleksandar Donski:
Thank you for mentioning me. Basil II CAN NOT BE AN ARMENIAN!!! And the reason for this is very simple – he had light blue eyes (as is described from Michael Psellus who personaly knew him and described what he saw). With all respect we know that the Armenians are people with darker skin and eyes and there are no blond people among them. Further, Basil II was a distinct relative of Basil I for whom is clearly written that was born in Macedonia. Nothing is strange if the war between Samuel and Basil II was partialy war between Macedonians (although their armies were multi-ethnical). Before them Seleucides made war against Ptolemeis, although both of them were Macedonians and there are many cases like this among almost every people in the ancient times, but also later. There are endless wars between Hellens against other Hellens, or Romans against other Romans, or civil wars in new Age and so...

About Basil II and his dynasty I published data in my books VIZANTISKI CAREVI OD MAKEDONSKO POTEKLO and UDELOT NA MAKEDONCITE VO SVETSKATA CIVILIZACIJA. Here is small, but heavy :-), data from all of this.

Vo svetski poznatata enciklopedija Microsoft Encarta (1998, naslov Basil I), vrska so potekloto na Vasilij Prvi chitame:
"Vasilij Prvi (812-886), vizantiski imperator (867-886) i osnovach na Makedonskata dinastija. Roden e vo Makedonija i poteknuval od selansko semejstvo (...)".
Vo poznatata "Kompton Enciklopedija" vo vrska so vostanovuvanjeto na Makedonskata dinastija vo Vizantija chitame:
"So krunisuvanjeto na Vasil Prvi Makedonski vo 867 godina bila vostanovena dolgata dinastija makedonski carevi". (Compton's Encyclopedia Online v3.0 © 1998 The Learning Company, Inc.).

VERY INTERESTING FACT. THE ANCIENT MACEDONIAN PHALANX WAS INCLUDED IN THE BYZANTINE ARMY UNDER THE CZAR BASIL II THE MACEDONIAN. Again paert from my books will follow (in Macedonian):

Hrvatskiot istorichar d-r Stjepan Antoljak (eksper za makedonskata srednovekovna istorija) vo svojata kniga "Srednovekovna Makedonija" (Skopje, 1985, str. 212), povikuvajki se na trudovite na vizantiskiot istorichar Skilica, pishuva:
"Vo vizantiskata vojska bila svoevremeno vklopena Makedonskata falanga, kako shto pishuva Skilica i taa, vo 1072 godina, uchestvuvala vo ograbuvanjeto na nekogashnata Samuilova prestolnina Prespa".



Kiril Stefan xxxxxxx :
With all due respect, neither eye nor skin color is always tied to absolute ethnicity. I live near the largest enclave of pure-blooded armenians in the world (Watertown, Mass.) and there are plenty of blue-eyed and lighter skinned Armenians. There are even blondes among them, my armenian professor at MIT who was a pure-blooded Armenian from Bulgaria. Among my own family lineage there are blond and blue eyed armenians that are part-armenian and part-macedonian as well as full blooded armenians that escape their genocide.


Aleksandar Donski :
We are talking about Middle Age Armenians and there is no doubt how they looked like. Simmilar was with Jews and Turks. Now there are a lot of blonde Turks, but of course that original Turks are dark haired which means that blond Turks now are nothing more than descendants of mainly Balkan people who were islamized. Simmilar was with Jews - it is wellknown that a lot of Balkan people lived in the Holy Land after it was liberated from Alexander the Great... But it is a long story

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100605023652AAHCqwq

What did ancient Armenians look like?

[Carlin]

The following article is in Greek.

http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=509

It contains the list of all East Roman (Byzantine) rulers and dynasties.

Under the column "KATAGOGI or ΚΑΤΑΓΩΓΉ" in the chart, the reader can find the ancestry/ethnic origin of each individual ruler.

Scroll down to the Macedonian Dynasty section and observe that almost all of them are of "Armeno-Slavic" descent.

PS: FYI - No Byzantine Emperor was of Greek ethnic origin.