"Macedo-Bulgarians"

[Mr Gurther]

i've been exploring the english wikipedia for IMRO and i kept on noticing the term "Macedo-Bulgarians" and at first i thought it meant "hes a Macedonian and Bulgarian" but it just means "Bulgarian in the region of Macedonia" and i find this term really dubious, so im writing this thread to prove that the concept of "Macedo-Bulgarians" is fake, if anyone has gotten sources to help support my claim please share them

so far i found this interview from british historian Keith Brown on MPO identity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktUYnUHB3PY

But what seems clear to me is that when they call themselves Bulgarian, they’re not thinking of themselves as having loyalty to Sofia, to the Bulgarian state. they're using it to refer to themselves by religion or by language at a time when Bulgarian for them doesn't mean nationality Bulgarian and loyal to Sofia and as soon as it begins to mean that, and as soon as they become aware that people are taking their statement of being Bulgarian as meaning being loyal to Sofia, they resist it and they start changing the way they call themselves.

this suggest that MPO declarations as "Macedo-Bulgarians" wasn't ethnic and instead just religious

[Mr Gurther]

i've been exploring the english wikipedia for IMRO and i kept on noticing the term "Macedo-Bulgarians" and at first i thought it meant "hes a Macedonian and Bulgarian" but it just means "Bulgarian in the region of Macedonia" and i find this term really dubious, so im writing this thread to prove that the concept of "Macedo-Bulgarians" is fake, if anyone has gotten sources to help support my claim please share them

so far i found this interview from british historian Keith Brown on MPO identity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktUYnUHB3PY



this suggest that MPO declarations as "Macedo-Bulgarians" wasn't ethnic and instead just religious

taken from the book "Княжество Бъгария въ Историческо, Географическо и Етнографическо Отношение" written in 1895 P.52

Macedonians are generally developed, cunning, cunning and mean people. The Macedonian wants freedom more than the Thracian and the Bulgarian who lives in northern Bulgaria, but only for someone else to win it for him, not himself. There is not even a spark of patriotism in the Macedonian. He sells it to his father for money. It is said that when they put up decorations in a diocese in Macedonia, when the priests advised the population to confess their nationality to the government, some said, 'You will give us money, we will pretend to be Bulgarians.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Brown does offer a decent summary. Try also Mario Hristovski's video on the topic

[Karposh]

It is common knowledge that a sizeable percentage of Bulgaria's population was in fact comprised of Macedonian immigrants during the mid to late 1800's. I have no doubt that many of these immigrants would have been influenced by Bulgarian propaganda over time for the simple fact that they were living in Bulgaria. I also believe that the term "Macedo-Bulgarian" was born in Bulgaria.

However, as far as I'm concerned, the most honest opinion of how the "Slavic population of Macedonia" identified during that late 1800's is given by Bulgaria's very own, Vasil Kanchov.

The following is what I wrote on a Youtube video while debating a bunch of Greeks. They quickly shut up after I posted this and had nothing further to say. A lot of what I wrote was with the aide of this very website and some of the views expressed by other members on this site from a thread on Vasil Kanchov.

Before the arrival of these refugees, the “Slavic-speaking population” or “Bulgarians”, as you refer to them, made up the clear majority of Greek-occupied Macedonia. The thing is, they would have referred to themselves as just Macedonians, despite the claims that they were Bulgarians. There is plenty of evidence that confirms this fact.

One particular piece of evidence is Vasil Kanchov’s frank admission on Page 1 of his book Orohydrography of Macedonia, first published in 1911, that the people he has labelled “Bulgarians” in his book actually refer to themselves as Macedonians. Kanchov was a Bulgarian nationalist and travelled extensively throughout Macedonia collecting data on the ethnic make-up of the country in a bid to make a case for the Bulgarian claims on Macedonia. Greece and Serbia were doing the same to promote their claims on Macedonia, but it is generally agreed that Vasil Kanchov’s ethnographic research is by far the most comprehensive of all.

Due to his role as a Chief School Inspector during the period 1894–1897, he was extremely well informed on the situation in Macedonia, since he visited each and every town, and many if not all villages in Macedonia. Whether it was his personal conviction, or out of a sense of duty as an employee of the Bulgarian Exarchate, he was naturally compelled to label all Macedonians as Bulgarians. However, as a scientist, he was honest enough to admit that Macedonians do not self-identify as Bulgarians (or Serbs or Greeks for that matter) but simply as Macedonians. The reason why this is an exceptional piece of evidence for how the “Slavic population” of Macedonia self-identified at that time is that it undermines the entire Bulgarian narrative and reveals it for what it is – nothing but vile Bulgarian propaganda. Also, bare in mind the intense pressure that was put on the local population (often at the end of a gun barrel) by all of the respective Balkan nations that felt they had a claim on Macedonia to convince/force them to become Bulgarians, Greeks or Serbs. Yet, they still preferred to just remain Macedonians.

Here is the quote from Kanchov on page 1 of his book Orohydrography of Macedonia:

“It is impossible to give precise borders of the area of Macedonia, since this country is not limited with some strict geographic features, nor is it administratively separated by the other countries. Only in the ethnographic sense Macedonia has defined borders, since the Bulgarian tribe is settled in the entire country, and rarely exits its limits. The areas to the north, west and south of Macedonia have predominantly other population. To determine its borders, we will follow mainly the main perception of the population and the determination given by the most skilled recent travelers. The local Bulgarians and Kutsovlachs who live in the area of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians, and the surrounding nations call them Macedonians. Turks and Albanians from Macedonia do not call themselves Macedonians, but when asked where they are from, they respond ‘from Macedonia’ … also Greeks who live in the southern area of Macedonia, do not call themselves Macedonians...”

Please Note: the Greeks living in Macedonia did not call themselves Macedonians.

[Soldier of Macedon]

i've been exploring the english wikipedia for IMRO and i kept on noticing the term "Macedo-Bulgarians" and at first i thought it meant "hes a Macedonian and Bulgarian" but it just means "Bulgarian in the region of Macedonia" and i find this term really dubious, so im writing this thread to prove that the concept of "Macedo-Bulgarians" is fake, if anyone has gotten sources to help support my claim please share them

I am quite certain that for many the original intent was to suggest a "Bulgarian from Macedonia." The real question, aside from how exactly these people were "Bulgarian," is why they insisted on prefacing this supposed identity, if one could call it that, with the term “Macedonian.” The usual explanation, clutched by today's Bulgarian chauvinists, is that it was a mere geographical reference. However, at its core, there is a much deeper meaning that is rooted in the historical and cultural legacy of the region, an inescapable fact even for those who espoused this bizarre nomenclature. It is the reason why the Macedonian identity alone, despite being attacked from all quarters, endured and ultimately won out. It was organic, natural and entirely relevant to the history and the culture of the Macedonian people.

Conversely, the term “Macedo-Bulgarian” is erroneously political, a useless relic birthed during an era when Macedonians were subjected to intense Bulgarian propaganda. Sure, some groups, like the MPO, use(d) it. Some activists and revolutionaries also used the equally useless "Macedonian Bulgarian." Chalk most of it up to an enduring level of indoctrination from a time when they attended exarchate schools and churches or were influenced by political ideologies stemming from Bulgaria, which some misguided souls attempted to pass on to subsequent generations. The fact is, such an identity was basically non-existent among the general population. Most regular people, whose opinion was seldom taken into account, referred to themselves as simply Macedonian, a fact that was begrudgingly conceded even by the likes of a staunch exarchate tool such as Kanchov, as highlighted by Karposh above.

[Mr Gurther]

It is common knowledge that a sizeable percentage of Bulgaria's population was in fact comprised of Macedonian immigrants during the mid to late 1800's. I have no doubt that many of these immigrants would have been influenced by Bulgarian propaganda over time for the simple fact that they were living in Bulgaria. I also believe that the term "Macedo-Bulgarian" was born in Bulgaria.

However, as far as I'm concerned, the most honest opinion of how the "Slavic population of Macedonia" identified during that late 1800's is given by Bulgaria's very own, Vasil Kanchov.

The following is what I wrote on a Youtube video while debating a bunch of Greeks. They quickly shut up after I posted this and had nothing further to say. A lot of what I wrote was with the aide of this very website and some of the views expressed by other members on this site from a thread on Vasil Kanchov.

Thank you Karposh this is really interesting, i found a section in the Macedonian (ethnic group) that confirms your theory

Original manuscript versions of population data mentioned "Macedonian Slavs", though the term was changed to "Bulgarians" in the official printing. Western publications usually presented the Slavs of Macedonia as Bulgarians, as happened, partly for political reasons, in Serbian ones. Prompted by the publication of a Serbian map by Spiridon Gopčević claiming the Slavs of Macedonia as Serbs, a version of a Russian map, published in 1891, in a period of deterioration of Bulgarian-Russian relations, first presented Macedonia inhabited not by Bulgarians, but by Macedonian Slavs

so all these foreigners who've made maps claiming they were "Bulgarians" were mostly doing it for political reasons and to gain a better relationship with Bulgaria, those who were not allies with Bulgaria labeled them as Macedonians

[Mr Gurther]

Brown does offer a decent summary. Try also Mario Hristovski's video on the topic

Thank you ill check it out

[VMRO]

i've been exploring the english wikipedia for IMRO and i kept on noticing the term "Macedo-Bulgarians" and at first i thought it meant "hes a Macedonian and Bulgarian" but it just means "Bulgarian in the region of Macedonia" and i find this term really dubious, so im writing this thread to prove that the concept of "Macedo-Bulgarians" is fake, if anyone has gotten sources to help support my claim please share them

so far i found this interview from british historian Keith Brown on MPO identity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktUYnUHB3PY



this suggest that MPO declarations as "Macedo-Bulgarians" wasn't ethnic and instead just religious

This aligns with what J Swire wrote in his book Bulgarian Conspiracy

[Soldier of Macedon]

This aligns with what J Swire wrote in his book Bulgarian Conspiracy

Good quote. Similar to the below from page 21 on this thread: https://www.macedoniantruth.org/foru...t=3916&page=21

From the book, "Men in White Aprons: A study of ethnicity and occupation", in 1978, by Harry Vjekoslav Herman. Pg. 25. He is talking to a man who goes to a Macedono-Bulgarian Church:

One of my informants, a member of this church, told me: "I am neither Bulgarian, nor Serbian, nor Greek; I am Macedonian, and I want this to be recognized."

[Mr Gurther]

Good quote. Similar to the below from page 21 on this thread: https://www.macedoniantruth.org/foru...t=3916&page=21

thanks for the info, i also found something from Stefan Verkovic book -"Songs for Macedo-Bulgaro" in 1860

"Bolgari" (voulgaroѕ) was a Byzantine, then Greek, politically imposed name for the Slavic population, the name "Bulgarians" was a later synonym, a substitute for Slavs

[Liberator of Makedonija]

thanks for the info, i also found something from Stefan Verkovic book -"Songs for Macedo-Bulgaro" in 1860

Do you have a link to this source?

[Mr Gurther]

Do you have a link to this source?

yea here you go : https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...B2D0B8D19C.png

[Liberator of Makedonija]

yea here you go : https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...B2D0B8D19C.png

Thank you for this. Not sure how this book has escaped my notice until now. Very interesting indeed. I suppose what still needs to be clarified is that if Bulgar is a synonym of Slav, why was the Bulgar title far less popular north of Macedonia? Perhaps something to do with the medieval Bulgarian states?

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Does anyone have a link to where I can read Verković's „Народне песме Македонски Бугара“ in its entirety? I am assuming Mr Gurther got their source off Macedonian Wikipedia, which does not provide a page number.

[Risto the Great]

Thank you for this. Not sure how this book has escaped my notice until now. Very interesting indeed. I suppose what still needs to be clarified is that if Bulgar is a synonym of Slav, why was the Bulgar title far less popular north of Macedonia? Perhaps something to do with the medieval Bulgarian states?

Surely it would have to do with church affiliations/influences. North of Macedonia was the Serbian Orthodox Church which was completely revived in 1879.