The Illyrians

[Risto the Great]

I find that there are many unique Croatian names.

I agree. They are less likely to be some Christian based variant.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Some of you may recall a show called Quantum Leap, the main actor was a guy called Scott Bakula. I found his surname interesting and after a brief search I found that he is of Croatian descent. I searched the origin of the name and found that it has a meaning in Sanskrit (not sure if it has one in Slavic), see below:

http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Bakula.html

Meaning: Resembles a crane; blossom

Bakula represents the blossom of the tree with the same name. According to a story the flowers of the Bakula blossom when they are kissed by a woman.

I wonder how this came to be. I find that there are many unique Croatian names.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The most logical name for those languages is one,Slavic or Russian!
They speak almost the same language with Russians

They didn't get their language from the Russians, so the suggestion is expectedly uninformed. As for the term 'Slavic', it is only suitable for a linguistic group and not a specific language, so it has parallels in Latin, Germanic, Celtic, etc. What linguistic group does Albanian belong to? None. Or perhaps all. That is because it is one of the most bastardised languages in Europe. And you're going to blabber on about "pure" Illyrians? Please....

Illyrians were singing this song,we sing this song too.....I dont know how many more facts you want about Albanian iLLyrian origin

You haven't even provided any facts, all you've done is claim that some song that Albanians sing is Illyrian. What proof is there that the Illyrians sang this song? How many times do I need to ask you the same question? Start proving these assertions of yours or at least provide some sort of logical response, or stop trolling on the forum.

[Delodephius]

Hehehe, So Slavs (Russians) now are Illyrians?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Croatian_dictionaries

1670 – Pavao Ritter Vitezović, Lexicon Latino-Illyricum (a manuscript dictionary in which the author carried out in practice his views on the language and spelling).

1728 – Ardelio della Bella, Dizionario Italiano–Latino–Illirico (mainly based on Ragusan literary sources, but also includes Čakavian sources; supplemented by a short grammar of the Croatian language).
Adam Patačić, Dictionarium latino-illyricum et germanicum (manuscript dictionary).

1740 – Ivan Belostenec, Gazophylacium seu latino-illyricorum onomatum aerarium. (A Kajkavian based monumental dictionary of 50,000 entries)

1741 – Franjo Sušnik-Andrija Jambrešić, Lexicon latinum interpretatione illyrica, germanica et hungarica locu pies (the names "Croatian" and "Illyrian" are used synonymously).

1801 – Joakim Stulić, Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum, Budim.

1802—03 – Josip Voltiggi, Ričoslovnik iliričkoga, italijanskoga i nimačkoga jezika (A dictionary of the Illyrian, Italian and German languages) (based on Ikavian; Jekavian forms are cited along with Ikavian; Ekavian forms refer to Ikavian).

1806 – Joakim Stulić, Rječosložje ilirsko-talijansko-latinsko (Illyrian—Italian—Latin dictionary), Dubrovnik.

1810 – Joakim Stulić, Vocabolario italiano-illirico-latino, Dubrovnik (the bulk of the dictionary was excerpted from published works of Ragusan writers, along with Dalmatian, Herzegovinian, Bosnian, Slavonian and Istrian sources. More than 80,000 words on 4,600 pages, excerpted from 120 authors).

1842 – Ivan Mažuranić and Josip Užarević, Njemačko—ilirski slovar (A German–Illyrian dictionary. First "truly modern" Croatian dictionary).

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First Croatian/Illyrian grammar:

Institutionum linguae illyricae libri duo ("The Structure of the Illyrian Language in Two Books"), Rome, 1604.

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The Illyrian Alphabet

http://user.icx.net/~richmond/rsr/illyrian/illiricum.html

[Valmir]

It's my own little project to sort out the problem of the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin language. My solution is quite simple and it was proposed by many linguists and historians: call this language by the name it has been referred to for over a thousand years: Illyrian.

Hehehe, So Slavs(Russians) now are Illyrians?

[Valmir]

That is the most logical and sensible name for it.

The most logical name for those languages is one,Slavic or Russian!
They speak almost the same language with Russians

What evidence is there that the Illyrians were singing this song? Or is this something else that you've conjured in your colourful imagination?

Illyrians were singing this song,we sing this song too!
And they singed that language in the same language as Albanians speak now!
I dont know how many more facts you want about Albanian iLLyrian origin

[Soldier of Macedon]

It's my own little project to sort out the problem of the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin language. My solution is quite simple and it was proposed by many linguists and historians: call this language by the name it has been referred to for over a thousand years: Illyrian.

That is the most logical and sensible name for it.

Our CCulture is Pure Illyrian...........

Yeah, ok. How many more times do we need to go around the same circle before you start producing something of substance?

So it means that we are iLLyrians,its a song that have been singed by iLLyrians and now by us!

What evidence is there that the Illyrians were singing this song? Or is this something else that you've conjured in your colourful imagination?

[Valmir]

Tons? I doubt it. Most of what you consider 'facts' is trivial or incorrect, or shared with other Balkan peoples.

Our CCulture is Pure Illyrian,and yes we shared our Culture with other Balcan Nations, Like Greeks,Macedonians,Slavs....
One exmaple is Fustanella.

So?

So it means that we are iLLyrians,its a song that have been singed by iLLyrians and now by us!

[Delodephius]

I almost forgot I started making this site some time ago, but never finished it:

https://sites.google.com/site/neoillyrian/

It's my own little project to sort out the problem of the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin language. My solution is quite simple and it was proposed by many linguists and historians: call this language by the name it has been referred to for over a thousand years: Illyrian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Croatian_dictionaries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement

[Soldier of Macedon]

there are Tons of Facts that Albanians are iLLyrians, Starting from Clothes,Songs,Language...Etc.

Tons? I doubt it. Most of what you consider 'facts' is trivial or incorrect, or shared with other Balkan peoples.

Most of the illyrian kings have Names in Albanian language........

Most? I don't think so. Probably more in the vicinity of few to none. I also question the suggested etymologies for 'bardyllis' and 'illyria'.

The words of the song havent changes for hundred and hundred years!

So?

[Valmir]

And I agree with that position. But you see how that differs markedly to your previous suggestion that the majority of Albanian culture is Illyrian.

there are Tons of Facts that Albanians are iLLyrians, Starting from Clothes,Songs,Language...Etc.
Most of the illyrian kings have Names in Albanian language,for example Bardhylis, Bardh - White, Ylli - Star!
It means WhiteStar in Albanian, this is so clear!
Even the illyria in Albanian language means the peoples that are free!
Iliret!

Many tribal cultures have traits such as 'oaths', it could easily have been imported by one of the other cultural-linguistic groups that Albanians have inherited. I don't see a definitive Illyrian connection there, unless you can refer to some sort of citation from antiquity which speaks of something along similar lines?

Let me give you a iLLyrian song called "Moj e bukura", You can find it in Youtube and listen it!
The words of the song havent changes for hundred and hundred years!

[Soldier of Macedon]

I ordered John Wilkes's book via amazon and now I can cite originally him.

Good decision, for somebody like yourself who has a keen interest in the Illyrians, the book is a must-have.

Wilkes position is that Albanian culture is an inheritance of several cultures, among whom were the Illyrians.

And I agree with that position. But you see how that differs markedly to your previous suggestion that the majority of Albanian culture is Illyrian.

Barthold Georg Niebuhr made a good analogy between Albanian "besa" and the Illyrian "oath of peace":

Many tribal cultures have traits such as 'oaths', it could easily have been imported by one of the other cultural-linguistic groups that Albanians have inherited. I don't see a definitive Illyrian connection there, unless you can refer to some sort of citation from antiquity which speaks of something along similar lines?

Of great importance in relating Illyrians with the Albanians is also the traditional customary law called 'Kanun':

Again, the opinion of the author in the quote you cited is based his own presumption that the Illyrians were the direct precursors of the Albanians. The first quote from Wilkes that you provided disputes that. Thus, the examples of the 'besa' and the 'kanun', while being unique to Albanian, aren't exactly confirmed as being of Illyrian origin.

[Delodephius]

The Position of Albanian

http://www.kroraina.com/balkan/ehamp.html

The genesis of the Balkan Peoples

http://www.kroraina.com/vg/vg.html

VIII. Albanians and Rumanians

Whether the Albanians are the successors of die Illyrians or the Thracians is a problem that has long been debated. Today the Albanians dwell in a region that was known in antiquity as Illyria. For that reason the Albanians have often been regarded as the heirs of the ancient Illyrians, although there are no other data supporting such a claim. In the same way, the Bulgarians might be considered as Thracians if the other Slavonic peoples and languages were not known.

But many linguists and historians, e.g. H. Hirt, V. Pârvan, Th. Capidan, A. Philippide, N. Jokl, G. Weigand, P. Skok, D. Detschew, H. Baric', I. Siadbei, etc. have put forward very important considerations indicating that the Albanians cannot be autochthonous in the Albania of today, that their original home was the eastern part of Mysia Superior or approximately Dardania and Dacia Mediterranea, i.e. the northern central zone of the Balkan Peninsula, and part of Dacia.

Now, however, when it is clear that Daco-Mysian and Thracian represent two different IE languages, the problem of the origin of the Albanian language and the Albanians themselves appears in quite a new light. The most important facts and considerations for determining the origin and original home of the Albanians are the following.

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 9th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.

6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:

Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. luptǎ, Arum. luftǎ, Alb. luftë
Therefore Albanian did not take shape in Illyria. The agreement in the treatment of Latin words in Rumanian and in Albanian shows that Albanian developed from the 4th till the 6th century in a region where proto-Rumanian was formed.

7. Rumanian possesses about a hundred words which have their correspondences only in Albanian. The form of these Rumanian words is so peculiar (e.g. Rum. mazǎre = Alb. modhullë 'pea(s)') that they cannot be explained as borrowings from Albanian. This is the Dacian substratum in Rumanian, whereas the Albanian correspondences are inherited from Dacian.

[Epirot]

Please quote the sentence, because as you saw in the past, some of the information you have obtained regarding Wilkes has been incorrect. Also, just because some aspects of Albanian culture are different, it doesn't automatically qualify them as being Illyrian.

Sorry for the delayed response, SoM. I ordered John Wilkes's book via amazon and now I can cite originally him. In the last chapter, Wilkes wrote:

As new guide-books are demonstrating, the Albanian culture, as fascinating and varied as any in that quarter of Europe, is an inheritance from the several languages, religions and ethnic groups known to have inhabited the region since prehistoric times, among whom were the Illyrians. (p.280)

So, Wilkes position is that Albanian culture is an inheritance of several cultures, among whom were the Illyrians.

Originally posted by SoM

Geographically speaking, there are larger regions in the western Balkans than Albania which were once a part of the Illyrian realm, such as Bosnia and Croatia.

I agree at some extent with you, but today Albanian inhabited lands are just a small section comparing to the vast territory of once Illyria. We have also to take in consideration that Northern Albania has been once inhabited by the proper Illyrians.

Pliny (23–79 AD) writes that the people that formed the nucleus of the Illyrian kingdom were 'Illyrians proper' or Illyrii Proprie Dicti. They were the Taulantii, [B]the Pleraei, the Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei and the Labeatae. These later joined to form the Docleatae.

If we search their territorial extension, we can notice that they are to be found in today Albania (the Grabaei and Labeatae used to live around Shkodër lake), whereas Taulanti lived in the hinterland of Dyrachium, stretching from Mati river up to Shkumbin.

Originally posted by SoM

You would say yes to the majority of Albanian culture being Illyrian? Please elaborate. I would like to see how it differs from their neighbours.

I would mention some specific cultural traits that are not in common with our neighbors.

The Albanian word besa is usually translated in English as “faith”, “trust” or “oath of peace”, but its truer meaning is “to keep the promise”.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/arts/article_2114.jsp

Barthold Georg Niebuhr made a good analogy between Albanian "besa" and the Illyrian "oath of peace":

The latter experienced many changes of fortune: the Dolopians, dissatisfied with him, joined Cassander, and he was obliged to take to flight. Pyrrhus remained behind as a child of two years old, and some faithful servants carried him, with the most imminent danger, across the frontier into Illyricum, where the Taulantians, who had before been subdued by Philip, had risen again and formed an independent principality. Its ruler was Glaucius, "an enemy of Pyrrhus' father," and probably a son of Bardylis. In manners, language, faithlessness, and rudeness, the Illyrians were the genuine forefathers of the Arnauts, or Arbanites, a very brave but terrible people. Among those wild barbarians Pyrrhus found a place of safety: the heart of Glaucias was moved by the sight of the infant. There are men who exercise a magic power over the hearts of others, and this is often visible even in children, who, however, often lose it in after life. In like manner, Pyrrhus had a peculiar charm, and a power over the hearts of all who came in contact with him. Throughout his life, he won every one's affection by the frankness of his mind, by his cordiality, and his noble soldier-like character There never was a prince in whom the character of a soldier had so much of poetry in it. The barbarian Glaucias could not resist the charms of the boy: the woman to whom he had been intrusted, placed the child on the domestic altar, and his aspect moved the barbarian. There are certain relations which are sacred to the Albanese, when they are not venal: humanity is not to be expected from them, for they are inhumanly cruel, and their avarice leads them to sell everything; but in some instances they pledge their word and are faithful, as e.g., when they conclude an agreement of hospitality and accompany a person: thus Lord Byron had for his guide an Albanetse robber, who told him of his murders, etc.; but he was quite safe. However, these are rare cases. The character of the ancient Illyrians was quite the same. Cassander afterwards offered to Glaucias a sum of money, which, considering hia circumstances, was immense, if he would give up Pyrrhus: but he refused to do so, for the child had won his heart. When Glaucias entered, the boy crawled up to him with a friendly smile, lifted himself up by his leg, and embraced his knee; and Glaucias received him as his own child. Pyrrhus then grew up among those half-savages, and it is a proof of his extraordinary strength and unconquerable nature, that his noble mind was not stifled among the barbarians. When he was a grown-up boy, his foster-father undertook to restore him to his country, and the Molottians were prevailed upon to receive him.

Lectures on ancient history: from the earliest times to the taking of ... By Barthold Georg Niebuhr

The Albanians today are a warlike, lawless people, but nevertheless they have their own-and a very strict-code of honor and they are faithfull even unto death

-H.Charles Woods

Of great importance in relating Illyrians with the Albanians is also the traditional customary law called 'Kanun':

However, Albanian customary law evolved over many centuries, both before and after the lifetime of this particular historical personage. The influence of Illyrian law should not be ignored. As the direct precursors of the Albanians, the Illyrians undoubtedly retained their legal norms despite coming under Roman domination, since it is established that the Roman governor of Illyria permitted the use of local laws when these did not conflict with the principles of Roman law. Even after Diocletian, when the provinces were forced to submit to increased Romanisation, the old laws were retained at least in memory and must have been transmitted orally to succeeding generations.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/v/vickers-serb.html

The Kanun is based on four pillars:

Honour (Albanian: Nderi)
Hospitality (Albanian: Mikpritja)
Right Conduct (Albanian: Sjellja)
Kin Loyalty (Albanian: Fis)

Needles to say, but Illyrians celebrated all of these virtues. At least, literary testimonies suggest so.

Authors of antiquity relate that the Illyrians were a sociable and hospitable people, renowned for their daring and bravery at war.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...129453/History

The Illyrians were sociable and hospitable people, much like Albanians today. They were also daring fighters and known for their bravery in war.

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/stud...e/history.html

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am referring mostly to the archeological investigations who have shred some light on the very fact that Illyrian culture continued its existence into early Albanian one.

That is no different from the archaeological remains in the rest of the western Balkans, where the majority of the people are not Albanians, but Slavic-speaking peoples.

I'd say yes but I'm not rejecting the possibility that Albanian culture may contain other influences, as well.

You would say yes to the majority of Albanian culture being Illyrian? Please elaborate. I would like to see how it differs from their neighbours.

As far as I remember, John Wilkes, one of the leading authorities on Illyrians, stated in the end of his book, that Albanian culture has a completely distinctive character from that of neighbors, and an Illyrian component seem very plausible.

Please quote the sentence, because as you saw in the past, some of the information you have obtained regarding Wilkes has been incorrect. Also, just because some aspects of Albanian culture are different, it doesn't automatically qualify them as being Illyrian.

Yes I am aware that Macedonian and Montenegrin cultures have some Illyrian features (traditional dress, dances and some old traditions). I just want to say that due to its geography Albania could preserve better Illyrian culture.

Geographically speaking, there are larger regions in the western Balkans than Albania which were once a part of the Illyrian realm, such as Bosnia and Croatia.