"Greek" life and thought from the age of Alexander to the Roman conquest

[Risto the Great]

I have been reading "Greek" life and thought from the age of Alexander to the Roman conquest by JP Mahaffy. Aside from the title, it is an interesting interpretation of history from a very educated philhellene of 1887.

In his preface he mentions how the title is incorrect and would have preferred "Hellenistic life and thought".

I will quote some sections of interest over time:

In relation to Alexander's mother Olympias:

We hear nothing of her culture, except that she was given to Orphic and Bacchic mysteries, and that she wearied Alexander with constant letters ..... Whether she wrote in Greek or Macedonian is a question hard to answer. But being a native Illyrian and not speaking Macedonian as a mother tongue, she probably used Greek as all the petty princes in Germany used French.

[Risto the Great]

Cleopatra, full sister of Alexander the Great:

She has the same bold independent character as Olympias, and was certainly educated as the sister of Alexander, not secluded like a greek girl. Still, I believe that though she spoke Greek perfectly, she must have made her defence to the soldiers at Sardis in Macedonian. This was probably the secret of the immense influence these queens had in their day. After hearing nothing but Greek at the courts of the Satraps, it must have seemed like a whiff of their mountain air to hear a queen speak to them in their native tongue; for even Alexander in his moments intimes would address them "Makedonisti", and this seems to me specially suitable in a trial before the national court of free soldiers, some of whom might not understand an argument in Greek.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Nice, keep it coming.

[Daskalot]

What you say... Makedonisti??!!? Where have I heard this before? Oh yes, WE do infact call ourselves in our native tongue for Makedontsi... And there were alot of Makedonisti fighting Greeks, Serbs and Bulgars in the early 20th century.

[Risto the Great]

What you say... Makedonisti??!!?

The exact translation. Yes.

[Daskalot]

The exact translation. Yes.

This is a very important finding that gives alot of food for thought.

[makedonin]

Guy's you may find many interpretations of "Makedonisti", one of it is the "in Macedonian manner or way, hence Macedonian ("Greek") dialect, which is less substential.

Makedonisti is a adjective to a word. Not an noun.

μακεδονιστι > speak in Macedonian language: μακεδονιστι τη φωνη
used in: Plutarch Eumenes 14

I once wrote something about it here

the ancient languages of Europe, edited by roger D. Woodard, one can read:



There are different interpretations about the meaning of this word, such as:

From the phrase μακεδονίζων τη φωνή and its context, A. B. Bosworth inferred that "... whatever its etymological roots, Macedonian was regarded in antiquity as a language separate from and alien to Greek"

But as said, there is a debate about what the meaning of this word was, even though, the same building with the suffix -ιζο, such as ιλλυριζω, περσιζω and all imply of speaking in certain language.

And as far as I can understand it for now, the suffix -isti is form of -izo suffix in certain case. If I learn more on it, I will let you know.

[Risto the Great]

Antipater (one of Philip's & Alexander's Generals):

He was a general of the greatest reputation, who administered fearlessly and well in the king's interest. .... He had no taste for culture, no sympathy for the Greeks; he so hated the upstart Eumenes that the latter would not venture into Macedonia after Alexander's death, and his treatment of Greek revolutions, his cold insistance upon the surrender and death of the Athenian patriots - Demosthenes, Hypereides, and others - shows his sense of duty to his cause, and his contempt of all sentimental politics. With him we can find no new ideas, no promotion of Hellenism, yet we cannot but respect his devotion to his master's house.

Why on Earth would Greeks claim the Macedonians as their own?
Historical revisionism!

[Risto the Great]

on Eumenes (a Greek) p.38:

As to his ability there can be no question; had he been bred a Macedonian noble he would probably have held together an empire for Alexander's son, and perhaps changed the face of history. But his colonial Greek birth - a cursed Chersonite the Macedonian privates called him - and the qualities it entailed, were fatal to him.

... further ...

This then was the type of Greek who foisted himself into the Macedonian empire. So long as the condition was one of war, when the cavalry of Peers and the phalanx were supreme, he was sure to be treated (except in the crisis of a campaign) with insolence and disdain.

[Risto the Great]

On Alexander's "Oriental Tendencies" p.31:

To a Hellene, the marriage with a foreigner would seem a more or less disgraceful concubinage. The children of such a marriage could not inherit in any petty Greek state. Now the greatest Macedonian nobles were allied to Median and Persian princesses, and the Greeks who had attained high official position at court, such as Eumenes, the chief secretary, were only too proud to be admitted to the same privilege.

The fashion of making or cementing such alliances by marriages becomes from this time a feature of the age.

... All the Greek historians blame the Persian tendencies of Alexander, his assumption of Oriental dress and of foreign ceremonial. There was but one of his officers, Peukestas, who loyally followed his chief, and who was accordingly rewarded by his special favour. Yet if we remember Greek prejudices, and how trivial a fraction of the empire the Greeks were in population, we may fairly give Alexander credit for more judgment than his critics. No doubt the Persian dress was far better suited to the climate than the Macedonian. No doubt he felt that a handful of Macedonians could never hold a vast empire without securing the sympathy of the conquered. At all events he chose to do the thing his own way, and who will say that he should have done it as his critics prescribe?

So what Hellenic culture did Alexander actually spread if the "Hellenes" were offended by his actions?

[osiris]

thanks rtg more proof that greeks and macedonians were distinct people with very differnet cultural values.

[Bratot]

1. Quintus Curtius Rufus

Historiae Alexandri Magni Macedonis - Translation by John Yardley

- Patron, the Greek commander, speaks with Darius:

"we few are all that remain of 50,000 Greeks. We were all with you in your more fortunate days, and in your present situation we remain as we were when you were prospering, ready to make for and to accept as our country and our home any lands you choose. We and you have been drawn together both by your prosperity and your adversity. By this inviolable loyalty of ours I beg and beseech you: pitch your tent in our area of the camp and let us be your bodyguards. We have left Greece behind; for us there is no Bactria; our hopes rest entirely in you - I wish that were true of the others also! Further talk serves no purpose. As a foreigner born of another race I should not be asking for the responsibility of guarding your person if I thought anyone else could do it." [p.112-13]

2. Arrian

The Campaigns of Alexander

- [Book II - Battle of Issus]

"Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian." [p.119]

3. Diodorus Siculus

- For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

[TrueMacedonian]

On Alexander's "Oriental Tendencies" p.31:


So what Hellenic culture did Alexander actually spread if the "Hellenes" were offended by his actions?

RTG you're rocking the 'greek' boat by posting this material Excellent stuff. As for Alexander spreading this supposed 'hellenism' this is just BS and archaeology today has proven that.

[TrueMacedonian]

1. Quintus Curtius Rufus

Historiae Alexandri Magni Macedonis - Translation by John Yardley




2. Arrian

The Campaigns of Alexander

- [Book II - Battle of Issus]


3. Diodorus Siculus

Nice quotes Bratot

[Risto the Great]

I previously wrote:

So what Hellenic culture did Alexander actually spread if the "Hellenes" were offended by his actions?

The book goes on to explain many issues pertaining to an evolving civilisation. I will read it further and post again. But I thought it was exquisite timing that my 13 year old son was preparing an essay for school. The task was "would you prefer to have been an Athenian or a Spartan"?

Naturally, I told him to write Macedonian ... you employ the Athenians and whip the Spartans on a daily basis.

But really, the school assignment is simply an attempt to identify where modern civilisations and thought comes from. The idea of compartmentalising the stereotypical city state tendencies is simply convenient for young minds. Interestingly, my son did ask whether all Athenians were intelligent and in fact whether all Spartans were awesome fighters. Thankfully he has the ability to question some basic and naive assumptions that people who should know better automatically assume. Quite simply, all of this philhellenic banter is merely a gross simplification of events for the purposes of explaining who we are in modern civilisations today and where we all have come from. God forbid we would look to the Asians, Africans and Arabs for confirmation of evolution of human thought.

JP Mahaffy (the author of this book) makes it clear that nothing is simple about these races and that many changes/influences were endured by them. He makes comparisons to more recent European identities/nations and shows how distinct they were and what actually bound them. I see no difference between the Hellenes and the EU of today. He does talk about gradual convergences of identities to form a Hellenistic grouping. But we all know that did not last long either.