Racism from Greece and Greeks

[SirGeorge8600]

Are you asking yourself, or are voltron and ottoman the same person? lol

[Ottoman]

Ottoman shall we list all the important peoples from both greeks and turks???

[Voltron]

Ethnicity is not necessarily based on blood Ottoman. Like I had said to you in the early days, Greece and Turkey have an almost identical approach to how they define themselves. So thats why groups like Grey Wolves and Xrysi Avgi dont see it your way.

[Ottoman]

When people say the word Jew they think of Israel, I think its wrong, not every Israeli person is Jewish and not every Jew is from Israel.

Many German Jews were also gassed by the Nazi's, yeah the Germans were killing their own people because of a religion difference.

I know many Jews, when I was in Turkey our whole neighbourhood was Jewish, Jews played a very important role in the development of Turkey, many fascist Turks just like the Grey Wolves (Turkish neo nazi's) cannot accept this fact, when someone is successful he will get praised but he will also get hated.

Success is a reason to hate someone, he achieved something you couldnt and thats just a reason to feel hate.

Turkey is a melting pot of cultures and peoples, nobody is pure, thats the reason I find the Grey Wolves bullshit, according to some sources even their leader, Alparslan Turkes had Albanian roots, well thats makes this whole case ironic as hell.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

In what way can they not be compared? You keep reverting back to this argument relating to Macedonians still being present in Greece, like that somehow discounts the amount of Macedonians who were forced to flee or were murdered, or the suffering endured by those that did stay back. That doesn't make their situation any better than that of the Armenians, or these people you refer to as 'Greeks' from Anatolia, who came from a range of different linguistic backgrounds, one of which was Greek.

Nowhere did I say "discount". I am referring to the impact.
Regarding your comment about the range of ppl known as "Greeks".
The same thing can be applied to "Macedonians".

Can you compare the Jews with the other favourite target of the Nazis, namely, the tens of millions of Slavic-speaking peoples in Europe that died as non-combatants? Does that make the suffering of Jews any less, aside from numerical comparison?

Blond hair, blue eye Slavs like Poles were not always necessarily treated with brutality by the Nazi's. Even the Ukranians were given a pass by the 3rd Reich. The Jews got the worst of it though, and like I said that does not diminish the others. Its just the plain truth.

[Voltron]

Yes, Voltron, they can't be compared in a history book that purely and quantitatively analyzes the subject matter, but in regards to lives pathos is pathos, and in this modern liberal world that seems impressed and obsessed with human rights and equality then they ought to value the deaths of all equally with out racial, religious, or ethnic discrimination...at least that would be the right thing to do.

However we still have yet to realize that as a society. 100 of the richest Americans own/control over 50-60% of this entire nations wealth...and that's the part that isn't in debt... I am drinking out of a $4 starbucks coffee that could instead be used to cure 4 dying africans of tuberculosis as we speak, and more over.

Its the liberalism thats killing us Arlington. Its that disease that started in America 20 odd years ago right around after Reagans presidency. Those bleeding heart liberals really managed to fuck things up by segregating everyone by race,ethnicity,sexual orientation,and any other identifier imaginable. Combine that with this pervise model of Capitalism where those "few" you mentioned rape human resources from countries in Asia where companies have "barrack" for their employees. They live there in those barracks then go to work for 60 hours plus a week with half the salary of a European and no benefits. And this is progress ? Anyway, sorry for the tangent.

What you bring up is a philosophical view point of what is wrong in this world today. I dont think that will change anytime soon.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

The most important thing is that we can leave the past behind us, I know that Greeks suffered during the Ottoman reign but Voltron see it this way, many Greeks who converted to Ottomans were the most successful ones with the highest ranks in Ottoman society.

I agree Ottoman, and that is one of the reasons why the Ottoman Empire lasted so long. It incoorporated everyone. Today those "Ottoman Greeks" are now Turks. We dont recognize them as being Greeks. One of the results of emerging Nations after the disintigration of the Ottoman Empire.

The Ottoman Empire had one goal; to be a large empire where everybody was equal.

Equal only as Muslims. Christians were treated with a different standard. So that is not entirely correct. But its not something I will make an issue out of in this thread.

The reason we committed genocide is because there was no other way to kill the rising nationalism of the countries who were once a part of the Ottoman Empire, the Albanians and Arabs for example both stabbed the empire in the back and later on you Greeks too, just think, if the Ottoman Empire would still excist it would rule three continents, the USA would suck our dick, Im saying our because Greece was also a part of this empire once, this is our history, we should not deny it.

In all honesty it was a Muslim empire. So in that aspect it was not ours. I would of preferred to have the Byzantine Empire still intact which also incorporated Turks. Not the other way around.
Genocide happened as you said, to cleanse the threatening elements within an emerging Turkey. It was to establish a homogenous country in Turkey without the Ottoman elements that was bringing it down. Each country had to do that. Greece did that as well and Im not here to deny it. What I am saying though is that we did it to liberate our land whereas Turks were foreigners or conquers of our Balkan territory. That doesnt mean their lives were valued any less, but the circumstances were different. Also the numbers were different, Look at how many Turks are still in Greece which you classify as a minority and look at how many Greeks are in Turkey. This is called " impact ".
The impact against Greeks was much greater than any other group in the Balkans with the exception of Armenians.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You cant compare what happened to Greeks and Armenians to Macedonians.

In what way can they not be compared? You keep reverting back to this argument relating to Macedonians still being present in Greece, like that somehow discounts the amount of Macedonians who were forced to flee or were murdered, or the suffering endured by those that did stay back. That doesn't make their situation any better than that of the Armenians, or these people you refer to as 'Greeks' from Anatolia, who came from a range of different linguistic backgrounds, one of which was Greek.

Just as you cant compare what happened to Jews with the Gypsies.

Can you compare the Jews with the other favourite target of the Nazis, namely, the tens of millions of Slavic-speaking peoples in Europe that died as non-combatants? Does that make the suffering of Jews any less, aside from numerical comparison?

[Risto the Great]

I am drinking out of a $4 starbucks coffee that could instead be used to cure 4 dying africans of tuberculosis as we speak, and more over.

I have drunk enough Starbucks coffee to suggest one cup probably has killed 4 fat Americans from horrible flavour.

Also thank you Risto the Great.

You are welcome. Always a pleasure reading someone's thoughts when they are articulate.

[SirGeorge8600]

Yes, Voltron, they can't be compared in a history book that purely and quantitatively analyzes the subject matter, but in regards to lives pathos is pathos, and in this modern liberal world that seems impressed and obsessed with human rights and equality then they ought to value the deaths of all equally with out racial, religious, or ethnic discrimination...at least that would be the right thing to do.

However we still have yet to realize that as a society. 100 of the richest Americans own/control over 50-60% of this entire nations wealth...and that's the part that isn't in debt... I am drinking out of a $4 starbucks coffee that could instead be used to cure 4 dying africans of tuberculosis as we speak, and more over.

Not to be the grim reaper, but as Plato said: the initial downfall of all democracies is with the risings of oligarchical forms, and we can already see tons of them in our societies.

Also thank you Risto the Great.

[Ottoman]

The most important thing is that we can leave the past behind us, I know that Greeks suffered during the Ottoman reign but Voltron see it this way, many Greeks who converted to Ottomans were the most successful ones with the highest ranks in Ottoman society.

The Ottoman Empire had one goal; to be a large empire where everybody was equal.

The reason we committed genocide is because there was no other way to kill the rising nationalism of the countries who were once a part of the Ottoman Empire, the Albanians and Arabs for example both stabbed the empire in the back and later on you Greeks too, just think, if the Ottoman Empire would still excist it would rule three continents, the USA would suck our dick, Im saying our because Greece was also a part of this empire once, this is our history, we should not deny it.

[Voltron]

Lol I never denied that Turks killed people, yes we committed genocide in the past but you really think the Greeks did nothing? you really think Greeks are only victims in this case????

Greece was under Ottoman control for centuries, you really think the Greeks who didnt became Ottomans didnt wanted revenge? you really think they didnt assault the Ottomans when they had the chance??? they didnt rape our women or killed any innocent Ottoman civilians?? bullshit Voltron and you know it, Greece had to spoil blood to become independent and we all know many innocent Ottoman Turks died for that.

Stop playing the victim al the time, the Macedonians are the real victims here not Greeks.

Ottoman, I never had an issue with you. Hell, I even like you.
Of course we are not saints and that there were many revenge attacks with horrible results. Try to remember, I have many Turkish friends and one of my best buds is Turkish. I respect Turks and Turkey and have learned to let go of my animosity long time ago. What I bring up in here is a kneejerk reaction to your compatriot Onur that has managed to bring out the "best" in me.

Lastly, the winner out of all this are the Turks. They suffered the least and really managed to pull a number on all of us. If you think about it, if it wasnt for the Turks we would all be in our homes right now without this subject even being discussed. That is the truth and dont take it personal.

[Voltron]

Nice post Arlington, but who was flaming on victims ?
There has to be a measuring stick to atrocities. You cant compare what happened to Greeks and Armenians to Macedonians. Just as you cant compare what happened to Jews with the Gypsies. Although every human life is irreplaceable in the grand scheme of things there is a difference. This subject is worthy of a thread in itself because its not so simple.

[Risto the Great]

Please speak of genocide victims with respect...when they were sitting at the barrel of a gun in front of a pit ready to enter a world of an unknown or absolute nothingness and never seeing their loved ones again, they could have cared less about some flag color, border shape, or detailed religion, or the face of some heroic leader that would live in spoiled royalty while they rotted in the ground. Their last thoughts were of horror, darkness, and absolute fear- a human condition that recognizes no ethnicity, cult, or religion. So while we sit in our temperature controlled rooms, with security, food, and family behind a computer screen, it must be easy to flame on these victims. I like to think that if there is a heaven that these people sit aside God regardless of what ethnicity their physical waste on Earth was, shaking their heads down on us small humans for laying such waste on eachother. And if you don't believe in God, I see no feasible way as to how you can be a nationalist.

That is a lovely piece of text.

[SirGeorge8600]

Voltron, your mega picture of pills crashed by internet browser..good job.

@Ottoman...read my post...both Greeks and Turks are responsible for victimizing people and denying it. For crying out loud, why do Greeks and Turks like pointing the finger of guilt when those very hands are also covered in blood? Hypocrisy? I think so.

Also I feel the vibe in this thread targets people more than it does past generations delusioned by nationalist ideologies... in that case maybe we should make the Germans out to be the worse when indeed they're some of the nicest people I've ever met.

Also @Ottoman, just because an ethnicity suffered less does not make them lesser victims or lesser to be regarded. It's like the Holocaust when Western media only focuses on Jews and ignores the masses of Poles and Gypsies killed as well. You people can thank democratic and liberal ideologists for living the way we do today and having the things we have...even the sake that we're able to recognize the suffering is a product of this. If we all lived under the regimes that nationalists from our countries 'admire' from the past and wish gained power, we'd all be in the shitter. John Rawls had a point...even if you are a selfish person you still need to regard the state of life of the other/opposing individual as much as you regard yours, because eventually the system devouring the opposing person will eventually devour you.

Please speak of genocide victims with respect...when they were sitting at the barrel of a gun in front of a pit ready to enter a world of an unknown or absolute nothingness and never seeing their loved ones again, they could have cared less about some flag color, border shape, or detailed religion, or the face of some heroic leader that would live in spoiled royalty while they rotted in the ground. Their last thoughts were of horror, darkness, and absolute fear- a human condition that recognizes no ethnicity, cult, or religion. So while we sit in our temperature controlled rooms, with security, food, and family behind a computer screen, it must be easy to flame on these victims. I like to think that if there is a heaven that these people sit aside God regardless of what ethnicity their physical waste on Earth was, shaking their heads down on us small humans for laying such waste on eachother. And if you don't believe in God, I see no feasible way as to how you can be a nationalist.