Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

ponatamoshni obisi za opstrukcii, navistina patetichno

posebno krajot, znachi tolkavo ego i sueta... Te boli sho ne te stavija da si "direktor" na umd?

Eve, za da mi ti olesni, i niv gi preziram, isti ste

ke ve ignoriram od sega ponatamu, "patriotite" koi imaat nekakov kratok spoj vo glavata.

Ti kako "golem" makedonec, nauchi prvo deka e kalesh, a ne kalash, i malku povekje za makedonija.

Ako ti si drvo bez koren, ne znachi deka i jas sum.

Inache, iminjata i podatocite se zapishani na edno drvo, na eden stap, drenov, nedelkan, so zadovolstvo bi ti go pokazhal...

tolku od mene so tebe, "patriotishte".

Nedochitanje


@ Еди: Samo napred. I bravo ushte ednash.

Сликај ни го дрвото и стави го на форумот. Обележи го и името твое за да ги видиме гранки директно до КалЕш.

Ми е многу смешно каде што скокаш дека треба да го користиме Македонскиот јазик, а самиот не си ја користиш Македонската азбука, демек за да можаат оние што ја не знает Кирилицата да Ве разберет. А јас кога го користам Англискиот за слична причина (заради оние што не го познавет Македонскиот, но се многу по корисни за каузата од Вас) тоа не било во право!

Само напред Еди - Вентилаторот било предавство (како што самиот Сердере признава), но користи си го без разлика и ќе те спомне во кругот на "Војводите"!

[George S.]

How serious is Greece about the negotiations?

How serious is Greece about the negotiations?



By Risto Stefov

rstefov@hotmail.com

February 27, 2011



Almost twenty years have passed and Greek authorities are still blocking the Macedonian people from using the name “Republic of Macedonia” for their country.



So, on the surface it would appear that the Greeks in authority are pretty serious about the name and are hard at work “negotiating” with Macedonian authorities to find a “mutually acceptable” solution. At least that is my understanding according to an article published on January 25th, 2011 in the Macedonian online website which quotes Greece’s Prime Minister saying “I am not an optimist over the prospects for swift settlement of the name dispute with FYR Macedonia. The other side refuses to accept a name with geographical qualifier for all uses. The Greek positions and initiatives in the issue are stable and constant. We will not stop in our efforts to find a mutually acceptable solution. We have a national strategy and clearly drawn red lines," said Papandreou while presenting the country's foreign-policy objectives.



If that were the case why then has a Greek Minister been quoted as saying something entirely different?



Here is what one of my readers sent me;

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldhansrd/text/80506-0016.htm

Column 532 is part of an interesting Speech by Lord Robertson (former NATO General Secretary and UK Minister of Defense), somebody considered a political big hitter and the sort of person who would know exactly what happens in NATO summits. If he says Greece Vetoed Macedonia, I’d take it as certain that they did, despite what the official (public) reports said. As a Labour member he would have had direct access to the PM and Minister for Defense (two men actually in the room at the time of the veto).

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090326/debtext/90326-0017.htm#90326-0017.htm_spnew1

Column 529. Not Lord Robertson as I wrongly remembered it, but Robert Walter MP. The Greek Defense minister he mentions could have been Spilios Spiliotopoulos, Yiannos Papantoniou or possibly (but unlikely) Akis Tsochatzopoulos. I imagine you know a lot more about Greek politicians than I do, so you would know who the more likely culprit (and private supporter of the Republic of Macedonia) is.

Either way, both documents are freely available on the Parliament website, and as such open to public scrutiny.

Yes, Greece Vetoed Macedonia FACT. Yes, senior Greek politicians don't actually care about the issue, and simply use it to score internal political points (votes) FACT.

Quoted here are the references given above;


6 May 2008 : Column 532

In the previous debate, and probably in this one as well, we will talk about the reality of what is going on. My noble friend Lady Ashton outlined a number of the areas where the common foreign policy is working and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, mentioned a few areas where there is great potential for the future.

One experience during my time in NATO has almost disappeared from the scene. It was an insurgency in the small country of Macedonia—still obliged by the United Nations to be called the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It was scandalously—and I say that with great deliberation—excluded from an invitation to NATO membership at the recent Bucharest summit because of an unreasonable and indefensible veto by Greece on that country, simply because it will not change its name. However, in 2001, it was beset by an insurgency and all of the agencies came together—the European Union, NATO, the OSCE, the World Bank, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the European Union’s representative in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown. Everyone got involved.



Javier Solana and I went to Macedonia 11 times between March and November of that year. It got huge coverage and was the biggest story of that time. In the Times, Sir Simon Jenkins, wrote an article saying that it was an unmitigated disaster that we were getting involved in yet another Balkan swamp. The strap-line to his front-page article said, with the characteristic understatement for which Simon Jenkins is so well known, that I would not be content until the Balkans were aflame from the Adriatic to Istanbul.



However, all those agencies came together, worked together, on the ground at the highest and lowest levels. A peace plan was designed and, of course, Macedonia is now on the brink of both European Union and NATO membership. If people would like to learn a little more about it, the Royal United Services Institute has just published a small book by Mark Laity, who used to be my representative in Macedonia at the time, chronicling both what happened there and the lessons from it. It is well worth reading for those who would like to know, not about the scary prospects of European defense, but about how it works in action. I think that is of more relevance, frankly, than a lot of the scaremongering we have heard as each stage of the European integration debate has gone along.



However, I say, and I know that my successor would also say, had he been here in the House of Lords as well, that what the treaty proposes—the Berlin-plus arrangements and European defense as part of the common and foreign security policy—will strengthen and not compete with NATO. It will not duplicate NATO but provide assets that will be useful to NATO as a whole. Overall it will add to our capability as Europeans to be able to defend ourselves from the threats of the future rather than the enemies of the past.



26 Mar 2009 : Column 529


Robert Key: Will my hon. Friend share his perspective on the problem that Macedonia’s name holds for the Greeks, who hold the right to block any progress for that new democracy because of the disputed name?



Mr. Walter: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and share his frustration about the Greek veto over Macedonia’s participation in NATO. If we can, we ought to knock some heads together. I remember being in Skopje not long ago with a former Greek Defense Minister, who as we walked into the meeting said that he could not give a stuff what they called their country, but as soon as we were in the meeting steadfastly defended the Greek line on the name. We have to move on, because such ridiculous problems—although the Turkey-Cyprus problem is not ridiculous to a Cypriot—are blocking the co-operation that is essential if we are to move forward. I understand where the political rationale for Turkey vis-a-vis the EU lies, but we all need to look at the bigger picture.



I believe Mr. Walter hit the nail on the head when he said “I remember being in Skopje not long ago with a former Greek Defense Minister, who as we walked into the meeting said that he could not give a stuff what they called their country, but as soon as we were in the meeting steadfastly defended the Greek line on the name.”



In other words the Greeks are “playing political games” with the Macedonians and not only “don’t care” about the “name” and what happens to Macedonia and the Macedonian people but at the same time hypocritically talk about “mutually acceptable solutions” and “good neighbourly relations”. What does this all mean?



According to my reader it means that the two large moderate parties in Greece almost always receive the same number of votes and are in balance and in order to “win elections” they need the support of the fringe elements; the nationalists and the extremists. So whichever party “panders” to the sentiments of these people usually wins the election. So, Macedonia has become a “whipping boy” for Greek politicians to score political points with Greek nationalists and extremists.



Here are some interesting links, courtesy of my reader - why wait for Athens wikileaks when UK leaks are just as informative.



London Wikileaks Cables



HMG LOOKING FORWARD TO BUILDING ON GAINS OF NATO BUCHAREST SUMMIT


Passed to the Telegraph by WikiLeaks 9:06PM GMT 04 Feb 2011

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8305019/HMG-LOOKING-FORWARD-TO-BUILDING-ON-GAINS-OF-NATO-BUCHAREST-SUMMIT.html

Ref ID: 08LONDON1017

Date: 4/9/2008 15:46

Origin: Embassy London

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Tags: PREL,PGOV,NATO,EU,UK

C O N F I D E N T I A L LONDON 001017 SIPDIS NOFORN SIPDIS STATE FOR EUR/WE AND EUR/RPM E.O. 12958: DECL: 04/09/2018 TAGS: PREL, PGOV, NATO, EU, UK SUBJECT: HMG LOOKING FORWARD TO BUILDING ON GAINS OF NATO BUCHAREST SUMMIT REF: A. LONDON 0845 B. LONDON 4/8 DAILY REPORT Classified By: Political Counselor Rick Mills for reasons 1.4 (b) and ( d)

1. (C/NF) According to FCO Deputy Director for Security Policy Chris Holtby, HMG shares U.S. views that the results of the NATO Bucharest Summit were better than expected going in, and looked forward to working closely with us to move forward soon on the outcomes which fell short of expectations. At the top of the list for the UK is Macedonian accession. PM Brown was deeply disappointed that the Greeks would not move on a compromise name, and wants to re-energize UN, Brussels and bilateral processes. The UK agrees with the U.S. position that the invitation does not have to wait for another summit; it can be extended at any NAC as soon as the Greeks agree. HMG is also determined not to let the name issue interfere with Macedonian progress towards EU membership.

London Wikileaks Cables

HMG WILL CONTINUE TO ENGAGE WITH ATHENS AND SKOPJE ON MACEDONIA NAME/NATO ACCESSION ISSUE
Passed to the Telegraph by WikiLeaks 9:06PM GMT 04 Feb 2011

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8305022/HMG-WILL-CONTINUE-TO-ENGAGE-WITH-ATHENS-AND-SKOPJE-ON-MACEDONIA-NAMENATO-ACCESSION-ISSUE.html

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Tags: PREL,NATO,EU,MK,GR,UK

C O N F I D E N T I A L LONDON 001112 SIPDIS SIPDIS DEPT. FOR EUR/RPM, EUR/SCE, EUR/WE E.O. 12958: DECL: 04/11/2018 TAGS: PREL, NATO, EU, MK, GR, UK SUBJECT: HMG WILL CONTINUE TO ENGAGE WITH ATHENS AND SKOPJE ON MACEDONIA NAME/NATO ACCESSION ISSUE REF: STATE 40462 Classified By: Political Minister-Counselor Maura Connelly for reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).

1. (C) HMG has been engaging, and will continue to engage with, senior Greek leadership to encourage Athens to be more flexible in its position on the Macedonia name issue. FCO Balkans Group Deputy Director Adam Bye said that the British Ambaasador (HMA) to Greece had met with Foreign Minister Bakoyiani on April 14, stressing many of the points contained reftel. Bakoyiani's reaction showed little movement from that of the Greek position we have heard over the past few months - that it was Skopje refusing to be flexible, and that Greece has worked as hard as it could within the UN mediating process. According to Bye, Bakoyiani also added that progress was unlikely before the June 1 Macedonian elections. Bye said the FCO would summarize the points contained reftel for HMA in Athens, advise him of the other countries the USG has requested to assist, and ask him to approach the FM once again. HMA may also contact Ambassador Speckhard to discuss joint approaches to the Greek government.

2. (C) Bye underlined that HMG is as concerned as the USG about the Greece-Macedonia impasse, and its impact on the NATO Alliance and Balkan stability and in the longer term, EU unity. He shared a readout of an April 18 video conference which he attended and included representatives from UK Missions to Greece, Macedonia, NATO and the EU: the UK appreciates and will continue to support U.S. efforts to remove the Greek block on Macedonian accession to NATO; the June 1 Macedonian elections represent an additional challenge, and the UK will urge political parties on all sides not to politicize the name issue or appeal to nationalistic instincts to gain support; while the UK shares the U.S. desire that this issue be resolved within the next few weeks, it is more likely to require a "sustained push," at least until the Macedonian elections; and, the UK will lobby other EU members to exert influence on Athens. Visit London's Classified Website: XXXXXXXXXXXX LEBARON

London Wikileaks Cables

NATO MACEDONIA INVITATION: UK EFFORTS FAIL TO MOVE ATHENS
Passed to the Telegraph by WikiLeaks 9:05PM GMT 04 Feb 2011

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8305009/NATO-MACEDONIA-INVITATION-UK-EFFORTS-FAIL-TO-MOVE-ATHENS.html

Ref ID: 08LONDON954

Date: 4/2/2008 15:29

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Tags: PREL,NATO,MK,GR,UK

C O N F I D E N T I A L LONDON 000954 SIPDIS NOFORN SIPDIS DEPT FOR EUR/WE, EUR/SCE AND EUR/RPM E.O. 12958: DECL: 04/01/2018 TAGS: PREL, NATO, MK, GR, UK SUBJECT: NATO MACEDONIA INVITATION: UK EFFORTS FAIL TO MOVE ATHENS REF: STATE 32646 Classified By: DCM Richard LeBaron for reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).

1. (C/NF) FCO Political Director Mark Lyall Grant told DCM that high-level UK intervention with Greece, including an appeal from FM Miliband to Greek FM Bakoyannis at the March 29 EU Gymnich, had failed to shift Athens off its hard-line position. Lyall Grant has been in close contact with Acting U/S Fried on this issue. The UK's view is that now that Macedonia has accepted a compromise name proposed by UN Envoy Nimetz, maximum pressure must be brought to bear on the Greeks.

2. (C/NF) Lyall Grant said that it was unclear whether Greece is using the name issue to block any Macedonian accession to either EU or NATO, or whether a modifier currently unacceptable to Skopje, such as "upper-Macedonia" or northern-Macedonia" would mollify the hard-liners in Athens. Either way, according to Lyall Grant, it will likely require head of government level intervention at Bucharest to move the issue. Lyall Grant said that Paris could also be problematic, given ongoing French-Greek military contract negotiations. He promised continued UK effort and coordination with the U.S. and other like-minded Allies. Visit London's Classified Website: XXXXXXXXXXXX Tuttle.

Dear reader please take note of the following;

1. “…he could not give a stuff what they called their country…”, and

2. “…The UK's view is that now that Macedonia has accepted a compromise name proposed by UN Envoy Nimetz…”

If this information is indeed true, and I have no reason to believe that it is not, then;

a. The Greek side could not care less what the Macedonian people call their country, and,

b. The Macedonian side has accepted to change the name which obviously is not what the Greek side wants!

So, the million dollar question here is “What does the Greek side really want?” and what are the two sides “really” negotiating?

Other articles by Risto Stefov:

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles.html#stefov

http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3446

Free electronic books by Risto Stefov available at:

http://makedonskakafana.com/ebooks.html

Our Name is Macedonia

https://www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia

[George S.]

Why does the macedonian side so readily capitulates & negotiates a compromise on our name.The promise of nato & eu membership if they change their name sounds all the more appealing to the politicians.

[Mactruth]

referendum on name

This is a disgust, Antonio Milososki accepted "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" in order to prove that Greece does not want to "end the dispute". Antonio Milososki should have stated that Macedonia is Macedonia and be done with it.

On top of that, adding a Vergina Sun to a bridge (not sure which) was cancelled! AND it is being called an "ancient Greek" symbol in this article, even though the symbol has been found on Thracian, Illyrian and Macedonian land!

http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/macedonia-hold-referendum-new-name-news-502593

Macedonia said it was ready to agree to a proposal by the UN's special envoy to change its name and thus resolve a long-standing dispute with Greece, but that the decision would have to be approved in a nationwide referendum.

Skopje is the capital of the small country and its name coincides with Greece's southernmost province, an issue which has led Athens to block the country's EU accession talks (see 'Background').

Milososki also says that his letter, which was reportedly sent two weeks ago, was intended to counter accusations by Athens that his country had shown no flexibility in attempting to resolve the long-standing dispute.

However, Macedonia's foreign minister insisted that the new name could be adopted only after a popular referendum. He also said that his country had ditched plans to adorn a bridge in the capital with the Vergina Sun, an ancient Greek symbol unearthed in the northern Greek region of Macedonia.

Unlike Macedonia, Greece has not tabled a single compromise, Milososki reportedly argues in his letter to the UN secretary-general.

Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski explained that a referendum should be held because neither him, nor his government had a mandate to decide whether or not the country's name should be changed.

"So we decided to adopt a decision, and let the people decide if it is a good or bad proposal," Gruevski was quoted as saying.

Gruevski also said that the country was certain to hold early elections. Last January, the socialist opposition in Macedonia announced it was leaving the country's parliament, in protest against a move by the centre-right government to block the bank accounts of several media companies.

It remains to be seen if the name "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" would be seen as acceptable by Greece. In particular, it remains unclear what citizens of the "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" would be called.

The nationalist positions of Nikola Gruevski do not augur well for the outcome of any referendum on changing the country's name, EU diplomats told EurActiv.

[julie]

Can blind Gruevski die hard supporters see now? Disgusting

[Soldier of Macedon]

Anybody who continues to support Gruevski from this point onwards can only be considered one of TWO things: (1) a traitor, or (2) ignorant.

[fyrOM]

Anybody who continues to support Gruevski from this point onwards can only be considered one of three things: (1) a traitor, or (2) ignorant.

Ill have box number 3 thanks.

Ever heard of offering something you know the other person will reject only so that you can say see I offered I’m the good guy they’re bad for rejecting…BUT just incase the sucks accept your offer you build in a short stop ie we will have to refer it to X ie my supervisor manager the board or in this case the people of RoM.

The purpose of a dummy offer is to look good and win more out of a decision being made…in this case the ICJ and the court of public opinion. If any of you have tried to negotiate with hostile parties you’ll know what I mean.

I would further suggest this has already been worked out and Greece’s hard line is deliberate to make them look like unrealistic uncompromising stubborn belligerent pricks who are doing it more out of bloody mindedness and therefore are the unjust party deserving to loose. This hard line of course buys the Greek politicians peace on the domestic front until the decision is handed down and then the blame can be shifted to the foreign decision maker so the Greek politician is not shot in the head in the next 5 minutes.

Can blind Gruevski die hard supporters see now?

Yes. Yes we can.

[Vangelovski]

Ill have box number 3 thanks.

Ever heard of offering something you know the other person will reject only so that you can say see I offered I’m the good guy they’re bad for rejecting…BUT just incase the sucks accept your offer you build in a short stop ie we will have to refer it to X ie my supervisor manager the board or in this case the people of RoM.

The purpose of a dummy offer is to look good and win more out of a decision being made…in this case the ICJ and the court of public opinion. If any of you have tried to negotiate with hostile parties you’ll know what I mean.

I would further suggest this has already been worked out and Greece’s hard line is deliberate to make them look like unrealistic uncompromising stubborn belligerent pricks who are doing it more out of bloody mindedness and therefore are the unjust party deserving to loose. This hard line of course buys the Greek politicians peace on the domestic front until the decision is handed down and then the blame can be shifted to the foreign decision maker so the Greek politician is not shot in the head in the next 5 minutes.

This is territory we have covered before and shown for the garbage it is.

[Pelister]

What a disgrace!

Wasn't the 1991 referendum good enough? Was'nt it valid? Are 'Greeks' Macedonians too now? We have a political whore running the country. He has been pushing for this for a long time, even though the Macedonian people are against it.

[fyrOM]

This is territory we have covered before

Yes we have.

and shown for the garbage it is.

No…in my recollection I think I said Time will tell us and fortunately it is a short time so you wont have too much time to huff and puff and go red in the cheeks…weeeeell just red in the cheeks.

By the way YOU'RE the one who said 1 of 3 options.

Guys remember good oil bad oil…rates are still the same…

YouTube - eTrade Monkey

[George S.]

How crazy it is.It could only happen in macedonia.Gruevski would have to be one of the biggest traitors to the macedonian cause there is.He so readily capitulates & gives in to macedonias enemies greece.The change of name will mean the DEATH knell of macedonia.
Seriously if he compromises on the name that will be it the end.

[The LION will ROAR]

Very Sad to see this is happening...
If this and I say "IF" goes ahead "Name Change"...I think many Macedonians outside of Macedonia will lose Faith and respect to their Country, Identity and culture...

[julie]

How crazy it is.It could only happen in macedonia.Gruevski would have to be one of the biggest traitors to the macedonian cause there is.He so readily capitulates & gives in to macedonias enemies greece.The change of name will mean the DEATH knell of macedonia.
Seriously if he compromises on the name that will be it the end.

He has already done it George.

[indigen]

Very Sad to see this is happening...
If this and I say "IF" goes ahead "Name Change"...I think many Macedonians outside of Macedonia will lose Faith and respect to their Country, Identity and culture...

TLWR, I will include you in the rest of the CONFUSED and DELUDED bunch!

What do you think for nearly 20 years FYROM for ALL INTERNATIONAL USE IS if NOT A CHANGE OF NAME? Crawl out from under the rock you and your ilk are hiding under and smell the coffee, mate!!!

As for your claim that "many Macedonians outside of Macedonia will lose Faith and respect to their Country, Identity and culture", one would have to be TOTALLY DELUDED to think that this has not been happening SIGNIFICANTLY at every turn of major treachery by the VASSAL ruling elites in MK, starting with 1993/1995 and accelerated by the 2001 FATAL blow to national sovereignty.

[Vangelovski]

Yes we have.



No…in my recollection I think I said Time will tell us and fortunately it is a short time so you wont have too much time to huff and puff and go red in the cheeks…weeeeell just red in the cheeks.

By the way YOU'RE the one who said 1 of 3 options.

Guys remember good oil bad oil…rates are still the same…

YouTube - eTrade Monkey

What 3 options did I provide?