Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[vicsinad]

I think both countries are now aiming to make sure any proposal doesn't go to a referendum but is decided by parliament (which is contrary to the stance both SDS and DPNE have historically expressed)

This is what it seems like.

[Stojacanec]

Bravo Zaev, you would achieve what others have been trying to avoid: to capitulate.

[Stevce]

I don't understand why the people who live in Macedonia are okay with this. Where is the pride for your nation? I have two uncles in Macedonia who support this nonsense stating that we are European and need to join the european community. WTF? My relatives who are against it believe it is only a matter of time before the name change happens. What is the general feeling in Macedonia are they going to sell out?

[Amphipolis]

I can tell you the latest news from Greece:

-Independent Greeks (the 2nd Government Party) will not support the agreement

-The Government is not willing to go to a referendum

-Some initial demonstrations are organized (each Sunday) in Thessaloniki, yet held by rather unknown organizations

-Church also has started to mobilize against an agreement (today there was a Gov. statement against the Church because of that)

-New Democracy (the main opposition party) seems to agree though they are afraid of political cost or people leaving the party and making a new one.

[Phoenix]

I can tell you the latest news from Greece:

-Independent Greeks (the 2nd Government Party) will not support the agreement

-The Government is not willing to go to a referendum

-Some initial demonstrations are organized (each Sunday) in Thessaloniki, yet held by rather unknown organizations

-Church also has started to mobilize against an agreement (today there was a Gov. statement against the Church because of that)

-New Democracy (the main opposition party) seems to agree though they are afraid of political cost or people leaving the party and making a new one.

If it wasn't for greek recalcitrance and their innate donkey stubbornness, the gypsy politicians on our side would have sold the name a long time ago...

[Gocka]

LOL I said as much in another thread, that if they fail to change the name it will only be because Greece wouldn't accept any name with Macedonia in it. Thank god for racist and chauvinistic Greeks, with out them, Macedonia wouldn't exist.

But lets not celebrate too early. Because I wouldn't put it past our cowardly bunch to accept a name without Macedonia in it, which Greece would certainly accept.

If it wasn't for greek recalcitrance and their innate donkey stubbornness, the gypsy politicians on our side would have sold the name a long time ago...

[Vangelovski]

Thank god for racist and chauvinistic Greeks, with out them, Macedonia wouldn't exist.

That's probably more true than you realise. The fact that Macedonia survived the first few years of independence and didn't revert to some form of union with Serbia probably had more to do with wider Macedonian mobilisation against Greek chauvinism than any real desire for freedom. Yes, there will always be a core group of patriots, but Macedonian nationalism (the real meaning of the word not the media meaning of the word) has been described as more of a reactionary survival instinct than some form of pride or desire for freedom. And I tend to agree with that observation for the most part.

While Greece's contrived name issue is quite the masterstroke, what they failed to realise is that their action only prolonged Macedonia's existence and drove Macedonian nationalism. If they just did nothing and waited it out, I hate to say that Macedonians may very well have joined some form of confederation very early on. I know that my own passion for Macedonian rights grew out of anger at what Greece was doing. Had it not been for that, I probably would not have found much interest in a country 20,000 km away, other than knowing that's were my parents came from.

But admittedly, that passion is slowly dying - if it isn't dead already. The past 25 years have taught me that this current generation of Macedonians will do anything to stay enslaved. What rot! Macedonia now feels more like an academic curiosity of a failed state and a dying identity. A massive disappointment to say the least.

[vicsinad]

That's probably more true than you realise. The fact that Macedonia survived the first few years of independence and didn't revert to some form of union with Serbia probably had more to do with wider Macedonian mobilisation against Greek chauvinism than any real desire for freedom. Yes, there will always be a core group of patriots, but Macedonian nationalism (the real meaning of the word not the media meaning of the word) has been described as more of a reactionary survival instinct than some form of pride or desire for freedom. And I tend to agree with that observation for the most part.

While Greece's contrived name issue is quite the masterstroke, what they failed to realise is that their action only prolonged Macedonia's existence and drove Macedonian nationalism. If they just did nothing and waited it out, I hate to say that Macedonians may very well have joined some form of confederation very early on. I know that my own passion for Macedonian rights grew out of anger at what Greece was doing. Had it not been for that, I probably would not have found much interest in a country 20,000 km away, other than knowing that's were my parents came from.

But admittedly, that passion is slowly dying - if it isn't dead already. The past 25 years have taught me that this current generation of Macedonians will do anything to stay enslaved. What rot! Macedonia now feels more like an academic curiosity of a failed state and a dying identity. A massive disappointment to say the least.

Well said.

[Tomche Makedonche]

From my understanding, the recent push for a referendum as well as the organisation of protests is mostly coming from the Greek diaspora who are still looking to promote the Greek Governments stance from 1992 i.e. name must exclude any reference to Macedonia

The conspiracy theorist in me can't help but feel that the best way to stop a referendum in RoM (which has the potential to humiliate the Greek Government), is to threaten with a referendum in RoG, which would no doubt see any proposal fail. Seeing this is contrary to the aim of RoM's government, it would be in their interests to "be fair" about the process and make sure both sides leave the decision out of the hands of the people...

[Risto the Great]

I do not see the advantage for Greece if Macedonia were to gain entry into the EU. Therefore I do not quite understand the willingness for Greece to match Macedonia's willingness to leave this out of the hands of the people via a referendum.

What would be in for Greece if Macedonia joins the EU and calls itself Nova Macedonia or any other name for that matter?

[Tomche Makedonche]

I do not see the advantage for Greece if Macedonia were to gain entry into the EU. Therefore I do not quite understand the willingness for Greece to match Macedonia's willingness to leave this out of the hands of the people via a referendum.

What would be in for Greece if Macedonia joins the EU and calls itself Nova Macedonia or any other name for that matter?

I agree that there is little advantage for Greece if Macedonia were to gain entry into the EU.

But then again I think the recent push has little to do with joining the EU and more to do with joining NATO.

Macedonia's EU membership, if it ever eventuates (even with a name change), is way off, I really don't see any progress for another 10 years at least to be honest, which has more to do with the EU's expansion plans then RoM actually meeting membership criteria.

However NATO membership is being sold as a common interest for Macedonia, Greece and the "West". NATO membership would be viewed as securing the states borders and hence the longevity of the state as an entity (Macedonia's interest), membership would also alleviate irrational fears of irredentism with neighbouring states (Greece's interests), and will solidify "Western" hegemony over the state (which appears to have become the "West's" interest right now and where I think this push is ultimately coming from)

This may be about EU and NATO membership to RoM (with the EU being falsely emphasised most to the minds of RoM's citizens), but it really is only about NATO membership to everyone else involved.

Macedonia is not entering the EU if it changes its name (if that day ever eventuates it will likely be a long way off), in my opinion this recent scenario is really about a push towards NATO (which again is not guaranteed either way).

[Vangelovski]

I don't think Macedonia is getting into NATO either. There is no threat to Greece either way. Even if there was, its security is only guaranteed as long as the US is prepared to guarantee it (NATO or not). In fact, Europe's security is only guaranteed for as long as the US is prepared to intervene. Outside of the UK, Europe (or the western half) is no longer willing to protect itself and I think that this has been obvious for a few decades now.

I think NATO's interest in Macedonia is very weak as well. Besides, Macedonia fully cooperates with NATO/EU interests regardless of whether its a member or not. The only difference to NATO that Macedonian membership would make is that it would then need to provide both funding and security guarantees with nothing new in return. I think its a bad deal (to quote Trump) for them.

I don't think Macedonia's name change will reap any 'reward' for them at all (if NATO/EU membership can even be considered beneficial - I think its highly debatable).

[maco2envy]

I agree with Gocka. Greece will ultimately have a 'no mention Macedonia in constitutional name' clause. Nothing is going to happen, maybe the international community may have some sympathy on Macedonia because our politicians sold out everything for nothing, but regardless still no NATO or EU.

[Tomche Makedonche]

I don't think Macedonia is getting into NATO either.

There’s no guarantee that’s for sure, especially when you factor in RoM conceding to Greece’s request would open the door for the rest of the Balkan retards to add their own demands to the table (something the “West” will in time come to regret about its policy stance), but a push towards NATO membership seems to currently exist nonetheless.

There is no threat to Greece either way. Even if there was, its security is only guaranteed as long as the US is prepared to guarantee it (NATO or not). In fact, Europe's security is only guaranteed for as long as the US is prepared to intervene. Outside of the UK, Europe (or the western half) is no longer willing to protect itself and I think that this has been obvious for a few decades now.

Well isn't that what NATO has essentially become though?, a US military guarantee of the state’s security? (the trade-off being aligning to the “Wests” interests)

RoMacedonia has never been any kind of military threat to Greece, but that’s how Greece has been selling its stance to the world in order to conceal its real perceived threat to its sovereignty, being the promotion and reanimation of its Macedonian minority, something many western states (United Kingdom, France, Spain, Germany, etc) sympathise with.

The US is now simply choosing to proceed by catering to Greece’s conveyed public stance to the dispute in order to achieve its own interests.

I think NATO's interest in Macedonia is very weak as well. Besides, Macedonia fully cooperates with NATO/EU interests regardless of whether its a member or not. The only difference to NATO that Macedonian membership would make is that it would then need to provide both funding and security guarantees with nothing new in return.

I agree, NATO’s interests in RoMacedonia is very weak, but the interest is still there, not because RoMacedonia has any real value (it doesn’t, if it actually did it would have already been a member), but because the political debacle over the last three years has given rise to the perception of Russian influence in the region (although the only real Russian interest was in Crna Gora), and just like in the cold war days (particularly with Russia now seeming more relevant in US politics), the mere idea of a perception existing is more than enough to spur the US to action.

Is NATO membership a US necessity?, no, not really, as you said RoM already cooperates with NATO/EU interests, but the fact that a perception of Russian interest publicly exists will need to be counteracted in order to prevent the wrong kind of message being promoted in respect of the “West’s” hegemony over developing Europe (can’t allow the perception that competition exits and there may be alternatives), also, if the “West” excludes itself from RoM, there is the potential for conflict to erupt (especially when taking into account other powers would seek to fill in that void), which could spread regionally, which again would not be in the interests of the EU, nor the US, since it is the US military who would have to come in and mop that mess up (being the guarantor of Europe’s security).

In light of the above, unfortunately it would seem to be in the “West’s” interests to have to exert some diplomatic effort into alleviating such threats and occurrences.

How high up is it on the US’s list of priorities?, probably somewhere around the need to fix the plumbing in its Ugandan Embassy’s toilet, but it’s still on the list nonetheless.

Add to that RoM has now acquired a proud globalist yes man as a leader, its probably the most opportune timing to try and turn some screws whilst exhausting the most minimal effort

I think its a bad deal (to quote Trump) for them.

I don't think Macedonia's name change will reap any 'reward' for them at all (if NATO/EU membership can even be considered beneficial - I think its highly debatable).

Personally I tend to agree, but it’s not me that needs convincing.

[Tomche Makedonche]

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/greek-pm-asks-church-for-restraint-in-macedonia-name-row

Greek PM asks church for restraint in Macedonia name row

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras requested restraint from the country's influential Orthodox church amid renewed efforts to resolve a 27-year name row with neighbouring Macedonia

The move came a day after the church said it was opposed to any compromise including the name 'Macedonia', which is also the name of a northern Greek province over which wars were fought a century ago.

"I hope you will contribute...so that Greece, in a spirit of unity and rational speech, will successfully deal with the issue...without the mistakes of the past," Tsipras wrote to the head of the Church of Greece, Archbishop Ieronymos.

Hopes of a solution to the issue, which dates from 1991, were revived after a new government was elected in Skopje last year determined to bury the hatchet with Athens, in return for a NATO seat.

"I believe it's possible to find a solution by the end of the first semester of 2018," Macedonia Prime Minister Zoran Zaev told Greece's Alpha TV over the weekend.

Ahead of a new round of UN talks next week, Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias and his Macedonia counterpart Nikola Dimitrov met behind closed doors in Thessaloniki on Friday.

Greece and the EU recognise the small landlocked country by its provisional name, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), under which it was also admitted to the UN.

Skopje has long insisted that this designation was only provisional.

In Greece, there is already opposition in the north of the country to any solution including the name Macedonia, and the issue may split the Greek parliament, which will be called upon to ratify any deal.

Defence Minister Panos Kammenos, the government's nationalist coalition partner, is also opposed to such a solution.

But Kotzias this week hinted that with over 100 nations already recognising the tiny Balkan state as Macedonia, options are limited.

"The baby is 25 years old, it has already been baptised," Kotzias told Antenna TV on Monday.

"We want to add...a composite name in a way that (the country) will be distinct from Greek Macedonia," he said.

Both sides have declined to comment on speculation that New Macedonia will be the chosen compromise.

On Monday, Kotzias noted that the name Nova Makedonija is among proposals floated in the past.