Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Prolet
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2009
    • 5241

    Pelister, TM already gave counter arguments to your posts, why do you continue be so stubborn??

    Keep in mind that UMD has some good people in it, i dont see the point on spitting on their faces, i already stated that i believe they should me more radical with their statements however im not going to point fingers at them because they are fighting for my rights as a Macedonian. We should be more supportive and not so negative
    МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

    Comment

    • The LION will ROAR
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 3231

      Vecer, Macedonia: Name negotiations to be frozen until Hague court judgment
      16 November 2009 | 09:45 | FOCUS News Agency

      Skopje. The name negotiations between Macedonia and Greece will be frozen until a judgment of the International Court of Justice in The Hague, Macedonian Vecer daily writes.
      “In the past 14 years not a single Greek proposal has been as humiliating and ultimate as this one. It is not about negotiations or an ultimatum, but rather about a voluntary rejection of the Macedonian language and Macedonian nation. Macedonia does not have a choice and has to wait for the decision of the Hague-based court. What have the U.S. and Brussels been doing in the meantime,” the newspaper writes.
      Vecer daily says that unlike the image of the new government and prime minister, who leaves the impression of a more pragmatic politician, the position of official Athens is apparently more extreme.
      The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

      Comment

      • VMRO
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1462

        Macedonia, Greece Name Solution Sours

        The negotiation process has dramatically worsened during the last round of Athens-Skopje name talks in New York. Greece stepped up its demands and Macedonia offered no additional concessions, local…
        Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

        Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

        Comment

        • Bill77
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2009
          • 4545

          Am i corect in thinking that Macedonia Called for Name negotiations to be frozen until Hague court judgment?
          http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15660

            Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
            Am i corect in thinking that Macedonia Called for Name negotiations to be frozen until Hague court judgment?
            This is a tragic comedy.
            Enough of this innuendo, when will Gruevski simply stand up and have the support of his entire coalition?
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Jankovska
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1774

              It's all one big joke and no one seems to give a flying fuck about the people and the name. Goverment should come out and stop the negotiations straight away, if not they should be removed from cabinet and parliment.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13675

                Originally posted by Pelister
                Yes, but the Macedonian government has already offered a number of name change proposals, which have been rejected by Greece.
                Good point Pelister, but were these offers for a complete change or only at the bi-lateral level? I tend to think the latter, but don't recall exactly at the moment because it has been a while since this was last discussed in detail. Can I trouble you for the relevant links from when these offers were proposed?
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Bill77
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 4545

                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  Good point Pelister, but were these offers for a complete change or only at the bi-lateral level? I tend to think the latter, but don't recall exactly at the moment because it has been a while since this was last discussed in detail. Can I trouble you for the relevant links from when these offers were proposed?
                  Try this site SOM. You might get some of the dates and all other news concerning the past negotiations press release's.

                  http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13675

                    RtG, let's put up a hypothetical situation; Gruevski pulls Macedonia out of these pathetic negotiations tomorrow.

                    Where does that leave the Macedonians in Greece and their relation to the Macedonians in Macedonia?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13675

                      The negotiation process has dramatically worsened during the last round of Athens-Skopje name talks in New York. Greece stepped up its demands and Macedonia offered no additional concessions, local media cite unnamed Macedonian government sources as saying.

                      According to A1 TV, while at the parlay with the UN name mediator Matthew Nimetz on Thursday, the Greek negotiator, Adamantios Vassilakis delivered a list of steep demands that set back efforts to find a solution.

                      Athens now insists its neighbor’s name be changed to the Republic of Northern Macedonia for full international use, as well as for Macedonian nationality to be specified as Northern Macedonian. Skopje has already said it would insist on preserving the Macedonian nationality classification, A1 TV said.

                      Moreover, Vassilakis insisted that the current use of the name Macedonia for commercial purposes is unacceptable for Greece, which requires all products bound for EU member-states to lose the Macedonia prefix and acquire the new one. The international code MK, as well as the Internet domain .mk. should also be altered, A1 says.

                      Citing unnamed diplomatic sources, the TV said that Nimetz has already notified the UN of this unfavorable shift in negotiations.

                      Macedonia wants a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue, one that preserves the identity, dignity and integrity of Macedonian citizens, the Macedonian negotiator in the name talks, Ambassador Zoran Jolevski, told Nimetz at a separate meeting in New York late Friday.

                      According to Macedonian media, Jolevski offered no additional concessions on Macedonia’s stance, stating that Skopje remains supportive of what has become known as the double name formula, envisaging one name to be used for interactions with Greece while maintaining the country’s current official name for wider international use. This was already rejected by Greece.

                      Last year, Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO accession over the 18 years-long spat. Athens insists that Skopje’s official name, the Republic of Macedonia, implies territorial claims towards its own northern province — also called Macedonia.

                      The new developments come after the EU urged both sides towards a speedy compromise in order to avoid another unpleasant Greek veto in December at the EU council. It is then that Skopje hopes to acquire a date for its EU accession talks, but Athens has reiterated that this will not happen if there is no breakthrough in the name talks.

                      A repeat Greek blockade can be avoided, Greece’s latest stance asserts, on the condition that Skopje informs Nimetz that it agrees to change its name. In that case, all additional details would be agreed upon by early next year.
                      VRMO, please post the article along with the link when you create these threads.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        Thanks for that Bill, unfortunately they don't appear to back-date far enough, I think some of the comments that Pelister may be making reference to were made during early 2008, around the time Macedonia was vetoed by the xenophobic racists and politicians of Greece.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Jankovska
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1774

                          Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                          There is good and bad in all this, if Greece Vetoes in December then it would be the perfect time to get out of these negotiations. If we get a date it would mean that the EU will give us a time frame in order for us to join the EU so we are looking at 2012 at the earliest, either way if Greece blocks us then we have to consider our options.
                          They Vetoed once and we are still talking, what makes you think we will pull out this time. We need someone to grow some balls in the Macedonian goverment soon. Otherwise we are fucked

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                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            i just heard the name talks are off they have been postponed.Mathew nimmetz is a puppet he gets paid a lot of money.He wan'ts Macedonia to simply change it's name.Regardless of that he want's to pressure the Macedonian government to change their name.The name is whatever the Greeks decide is acceptable.THey don't give jack shit what Macedonia wants.
                            On the aspect that politicians are sticking with certain policies ie no name change well some of them are under huge pressure to change & change is coming because they don't have much choice.
                            Last edited by George S.; 11-16-2009, 03:51 PM. Reason: edi
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              Isn't it funny how the first blockade by greece was totally illegal & greece was allowed to use the blockade with hardly a finger lifted.Greece was taken to court over that blockade & nothing happened.Macedonia suffered immensly & was not compensated.We hope there is no blockade this time.Greece does not want the double name formula & it's not going to give concessions to Macedonia.
                              Last edited by George S.; 11-16-2009, 04:18 PM. Reason: edit
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • Bill77
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2009
                                • 4545

                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                RtG, let's put up a hypothetical situation; Gruevski pulls Macedonia out of these pathetic negotiations tomorrow.

                                Where does that leave the Macedonians in Greece and their relation to the Macedonians in Macedonia?
                                Acording to the letter Rainbow sent to Nimetz back in early 2008, My understanding is they would be more than happy for Gruevski to pull out. To me its obvious they were and are against double name formula. I will give you a couple of quotes by Rainbow regarding earlier name proposals folowed by the link.

                                Quote: "We write in relation to your latest proposal regarding the so-called "name" dispute between our country, Greece and the neighboring Republic of Macedonia. Our position on this issue is well known and indeed it has been outlined to you on several occasions over the past few years."

                                We wish to comment on two names that you have listed in Annex 1, namely "Republic of Upper Macedonia" and "New Republic of Macedonia".

                                In relation to "Upper Macedonia", while the Greek government has indicated its willingness to agree to this name (as the Greek media has reported in the last few days), it should be pointed out that this name is inconsistent with its official position. If an "Upper Macedonia" exists then logically there is also a "Lower Macedonia." Therefore having this in mind, how can the Greek government argue, among other things, that the name "Republic of Macedonia" has irredentist claims on northern Greece, but the name "Upper Macedonia" would not? It is clear that a name such as "Upper Macedonia" could encourage irredentism on BOTH sides, which therefore means that it is problematic.


                                As for the proposal "New Republic of Macedonia", we must stress that every adjective related to the national-ethnic character of the state and its population directly or indirectly rejects ethnic Macedonian identity, both in respect to citizens of the Republic of Macedonia and members of the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece. If ethnic Greeks who live in the historical territory known as "Macedonia" have the right to a "Greek-Macedonian" cultural identity (even though the majority of them arrived in the area in 1922-1928) then why do ethnic Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia (living also in a part of the historical territory known as "Macedonia") not have the right to the historical and cultural past of the same area? If the prefix "New" is intended to distinguish between modern Macedonia and ancient Macedonia, then logically, the same should also apply to Greece’s name i.e. Greece should be called "New Greece" because modern Greece is not the same as ancient Greece

                                we wish to make the following suggestion. A key component of a fair, just and viable solution to this "dispute" will be one which safeguards ethnic and cultural identity.

                                “"The Greek state recognizes the existence of a distinct ethnic Macedonian identity as it is expressed and has developed in the Republic of Macedonia and elsewhere as a separate ethnic identity different from the Greek-Macedonian cultural identity that developed in the Greek state after 1912-1913 when a part of Macedonia was incorporated into the Greek state."

                                "The Republic of Macedonia recognizes the existence of a separate and distinct Greek-Macedonian cultural identity as has developed in the Greek state after 1912-1913."

                                Matthew Nimetz Special Representative of the Secretary General of the UN United Nations, New York Dear Mr Nimetz, Re: Proposal of 19 Februar...



                                So to answer your question SOM It would bring the Macedonians in FOROM (foriegn ocupied region of Macedonia) delighted and not betrade.
                                Last edited by Bill77; 11-16-2009, 04:21 PM.
                                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

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