Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[Prolet]

Indigen, Makedonska Nacija is a fantastic website with lots of information about our history and people.

All they did was copy this from Doncho's website, here is the direct link.

http://www.radioilinden.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=168:2010-08-27-16-55-52&catid=39:pisma-i-mislenja&Itemid=59

Indigen, The thing that surprised me the most was Jane Mavchev's outburst, he is the head of the VMRO veterani group he should have controlled his emotions better.

[Bij]

We have all lost direction of why our Church is there, and this is a true shame.

I went to St Petka today to light a candle for the praznik Bogorodica, and it truly is a beautiful church.

There are so many people that fight for this church on both sides of the fence, so many with an opinion on how it should be run, so many showing up and participating in time consuming and expensive law suits, yet only a handful of people in church today.

where are all these patriots? these warriors? these highly opinionated people? where are the vladika people that want to acquire the church? where are those that want to keep the church? that's right, no where in sight.

the church is not a pawn in an ego war of chess, it is a place to worship the ONE God we all believe in. Last time I checked, God wasn't pro or anti-vladika.

When did we all get so caught up in winning a lawsuit and forget what the church is truly there for?

[indigen]

I wouldn't be surprised, I can think of very few other reasons why Maknews would protect at all costs the already severely tarnished image of the UMD. I merely wanted to post his most recent reply regarding financing, from the horses mouth so to speak...if indeed your memory serves you correctly then we can assume that Maknews is a liar and without credibility or impartiality...

My memory on issues such as this generally is quite accurate. This was only a couple of years ago, at most. And as not long after all the articles by Vangelovski and Aleksandrov disappeared from the Maknews "Articles" archives, I rationalised that the public squabble on the Maknews forum between Vangelovski and Aleksandrov (amongst a few others) on one side and Meto Koloski and Co on the other was the cause for this and I put this deduction in deep memory. Even if the funding and the public ideological squabble was not the cause for the removal of those articles, my rationale still put the funding into deep memory.

Why don't you ask LU if UMD provided around $5000 US for his website a couple of years ago?

[aleksandrov]

I am starting to become extremely suspicious about the role of Mane Jakovlevski, who runs Makedonska Nacija, in the Macedonian liberation movement, starting from his attachment to Dragan Bogdanovski, to his undivided loyalty to Ljupco Georgievski when he denounced Bogdanovski as an UDBas and squeezed him out of VMRO-DPMNE, to his continued attachment to Ljubco Georgievski and Dosta Dimovska when they squeezed Zmejkovski and the other 'makedonisti' out of VMRO-DPMNE, to his reinvention as an enemy of Georgievski and protector of the legacy of Bogdanovski as the true founder of VMRO-DPMNE, only after Georgievski lost power in the party, to his extremely tight attachment to Ljube Boskoski until he decided to advocate a compromise with Greece on the name of the Republic of Macedonia, to his current dishonest advocacy for Petar Karevski - the man denounced by Bogdanovski as a srboman over a decade before he signed the Nish Accord.

If Mane really just wanted to share conflicting opinions from different sources, he would also have published my recent letter about the NSW Property Trust Bill, which I know he received from me personally. At the very least, he would have checked the submissions for and against the Bill on the NSW parliamentary website, before publishing "Donco Angelovski's" extremely dirty and dishonest UDBa-style construct (which I am almost certain was not written by the half-literate Donco himself) in "Makedonska Nacija".

[Prolet]

They were two questions and you answered neither Prolet.
Which has always been the case (for you) in relation to the church dispute.

Risto, I'll answer them directly

So you would agree we have gone backwards Prolet? And you would also agree Petar is the reason for this?

We have gone backwards and things have gone from bad to worse definitely.

I agree that Bishop Petar is responsible in some way but he is not the only one, there are others too. One person who comes to Australia once to twice a year does not represent our whole community.

Risto, I have a question for you, what is the best way to end this church dispute peacefully and in a way where our people dont loose out?

[aleksandrov]

Lastly, to bring to your attention, the Jole K. DISINFORMATION PROPAGANDA MACHINE has reacted and has slanderously attacked you in a new disinformation piece in mn ("Makedonska nacija"):



I would suggest that you paste a copy of the propaganda piece here and dismantle all the lies and expose Joles K.'s dirty tricks done dirt cheap campaign yet again.

As for MN, it is (or looks like) a front for DMPNE, IMO!

http://www.mn.mk/impresum

Главен и одговорен уредник: Мане Јаковлески
Вебмастер: Дејан Донев

Уредници:
Тихомир Каранфилов Гордана Димивска
Тихомир Каранфилов Гордана Димовска
Катерина Климоска Емил Јакимовски
Јанко Томов Ана Србини

Perhaps a direct reply would also be worth pursuing.

I've already tried to have our concerns published in "Makedonska Nacija", but Mane and his crew in Makedonska Nacija are not interested in the truth.

One need only read the Bill, the various submissions and the online transcript of the Public Hearing to discover how extremely deceptive and dirty this UDBa-style propaganda article is.

For the record, the Hellenic Council of NSW does not oppose the Bill, but merely wants the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" to be used within the definition of "the Church", which indicates where the seat of the MOC is. The NSW Government's submission, which does not oppose the Bill, recommends use of either "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or "Skopje". Petar's representatives have not objected to this. The only organization that has conveyed opposition to the disrespect of the proper name of the Republic of Macedonia is in fact the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia.

The official publisher of the defamatory lies in the above article, Donco Angelovski, will be held legally accountable for his actions. I just don't want to let that detract attention from discussing the substance of the Bill at this time.

Just to give people an idea of what a shameless fraud this Donco Angelovski marionette is, when he called me for a recorded interview I told him instantly that I would not let him record me because I suspect that he will censor, take out of context and otherwise distort the material, in accordance with Petar's wishes. Instead, I repeatedly insisted that we arrange for me to attend his studio for a live, uncensored interview. He didn't have the courage or integrity to do that. He has tried to cover that up by claiming that our private conversation was an interview and that I changed my mind about letting him publish it, without giving any reason. He has obviously been professionally advised of the consequences of publishing an illegally recorded telephone conversation, but he seems to have failed to obtain advice about his false and defamatory imputations as to what I really said at the Public Hearing (everyone can read the transcript on the parliamentary web site), and about the malicious and completely baseless imputation that we are collaborating with the Hellenic Council of NSW against Macedonian national interests. Petar, as usual, has once again hidden his defamatory lies behind someone else's name as publisher. The pathetic hangers-on whom Petar exploits as disposable rags never learn from the experiences of those who have walked the same path before.

[Risto the Great]

Risto, I have a question for you, what is the best way to end this church dispute peacefully and in a way where our people dont loose out?

Thank you Prolet for your clear response.
The best way is for Petar to disappear from the process entirely. That he is swiftly replaced by a forceful church hierarchy in Macedonia that understands the will of the majority of Macedonians here in Australia. The MOC should understand the significance of community property and focus on the salvation of our souls instead of the salivation for our shekels.

[aleksandrov]

Maknews (LU) previously held the best ideological position possible on the final resolution of the Macedonian Diaspora church issue in relation to the Macedonian Orthodox Church, which aligns with my position for the optimal outcome for the Macedonian Diaspora and Macedonian Nation on this matter - the establishment of an INDEPENDENT MACEDONIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH (based in the DIASPORA)! ...

Given that both DPMNE and SDSM, like their Yugoslav Macedonian predecessors, have persistently insisted on dividing the Macedonian Diaspora into blind sheep on one side and enemies of THEIR state on the other, it seems that you and Lubi will turn out to be right about this after all.

[aleksandrov]

Thank you Prolet for your clear response.
The best way is for Petar to disappear from the process entirely. That he is swiftly replaced by a forceful church hierarchy in Macedonia that understands the will of the majority of Macedonians here in Australia. The MOC should understand the significance of community property and focus on the salvation of our souls instead of the salivation for our shekels.

The Church Hierarchy in Macedonia has clearly decided to turn a blind eye to Petar's injustices, in the fear that he will not only air their dirty laundry, but will also probably try to vilify them with dishonest propaganda as he has tried with us. Maybe it's time for us to show the Church Hierarchy in Macedonia that if Petar doesn't air their dirty laundry we will. Let them then choose whether it is better to keep sweeping things under the rug or own up and clean up.

[aleksandrov]

"Makedonska Nacija"

"Makedonska Nacija", led by Mane Jakovlevski, a chameleon-like hanger-on to every VMRO-DPMNE leadership team to date, has definitely decided to campaign for bishop Petar Karevski's Property Bill, the sole intention of which is to usurp Macedonian Orthodox church community properties in Australia, with an express right to put them to use for a non-Macedonian Church.


This is what he says in one reply to my criticism of his refusal to publish any articles by opponents to the Bill, while publishing malicious propaganda against me and the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia, under pseudonyms or names of people with no public standing in our community:

"Ова што Вие го правите во Австралија е против Македонската Православна Црква а со тоа и против Македонија."

In another reply he says:

"Па зошто тој закон за сите други е добар а за вас не е?
На пример Европа го прифати, Јас бев Претседател на МПЦО Свети Климент Охридски во Берлин Германија.

Невкусно е да навредуваш владика на Македонска црква доколку ја чуствуваш како своја."

I responded with the following:

"Koi se tie 'site drugi'? Ako toj veke postoi za site drugi, zosto Petar bara za nego da napravat poseben?

Ajde pokazi ni go zakonot od Evropa za sporedba.

Za mene e navreda Petar da go poistovetuvas so MPC ili so Makedonskata acija. MPC e crkva na makedonskiot narod a Petar samiot resil da se izrodi od makedonskiot narod."

It's been 3 days and I am still awaiting a further reply from him to indicate who are these "all other churches" who apparently have the same law as the one Petar proposes and what is this alleged European law that is analogous to Petar's Bill.

Jakovlevski probably needs more time to get instructions from Petar as to how to respond. Heobviously lacks an adequate mind of his own and is therefore prone to being manipulated for causes that are contrary to the Macedonian cause he superficially purports to support. He is desecrating the name of Dragan Bogdanovski and the "Makedonska Nacija" newspaper that is synonymous with Bogdanovski. Read here the lessons Bogdanovski left us about protecting the independence of the Macedonian Orthodox communities in Australia from the 'vrhovist' and divisive bishops in the Synod and from the 'vrhovist' politicians in the Republic of Macedonia: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...8079960&ref=mf

What does Mane Jakovlevski have in common with Dragan Bogdanovski, apart from having suspiciously stuck to him like a leach until he was pushed out of the VMRO-DPMNE leadership and dismissed as an UDBash by Ljubco Georgievski, to whom Jakovlevski remained blindly loyal throughout his treacherous rule, until he lost power and had nothing more to reward his hangers-on with?

If Jakovlevski was truly interested in the integrity of the Republic of Macedonia, he would have paid some attention to this part of the NSW Government's submission to the Inquiry into the Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust Bill ( http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/d626eb568ff2a3ddca2577810012c75f/$FILE/Submission%2092.pdf ):

"It is understood that it is Australian Government policy to always use the full provisional name 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' rather than the name 'Macedonia'.

The Church is defined in section 3 of the Bill by referring to it being a part of the 'Macedonian Orthodox Church with its seat in Skopje, Macedonia'. This reference to 'Macedonia' should be amended to refer to 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' or to omit 'Macedonia' altogether and simply refer to 'Skopje'."

Where are Jakovlevski or the other misguided or deceptive Petar cheerleaders to question their 'apostle' whether he will accept the Bill under the condition set by the Government of NSW?

Apparently Jakovlevski doesn't have a problem with this condition, yet he has the extreme hypocrisy to vilify as anti-Macedonian the only person and the only organisation that have submitted to the Inquiry anything like:

"For the record, Macedonian Australians strongly and unanimously object to the Federal Government referring to the Republic of Macedonia as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia." (see point 8.2 of the AMCA submission here: http://amca2010.wordpress.com/ )

In a more recent article, Jakovlevski has persisted in shamelessly misleading the Macedonian public that Petar wants all Macedonian Orthodox Church properties in Australia to be owned by the MOC, while a "small group" of his detractors want them to be 'privately' owned. He has received as much evidence as anyone to prove that this is a completely baseless and malicious lie, yet he knowingly continues the deception.

The first paragraph of the Government's submission to the Inquiry states:

"There are approximately 29 DIFFERENT church property trust Acts in NSW for approximately 23 different churches. ... The Acts do not confer State recognition that the body is a church or has religious purposes."

This express statement of what should be clear to anybody familiar with the separation of church and state and the respect for religious self-determination in the Australian political system is still not enough to stop Petar Karevski and his blind cheerleaders like Mane Jakovlevski and Donco Angelovski from deceiving the Macedonian public that this Bill is about RECOGNITION of the MOC-OA.

The serious problem here is that Jakovlevski is far from alone in this. Since his days of leaching onto Bogdanovski, then Georgievski, then Boskovski, he has been regularly seen in photographs and videos alongside Nikola Gruevski and George Ivanov. What does that say for the people currently leading the Republic of Macedonia?

There is a well overdue need for enlightened Macedonians worldwide to consolidate their human and material resources and put a stop to the deceivers who are abusing the names 'Macedonia', 'Macedonians' and 'Macedonian Orthodox Church' to undermine the principles of justice, freedom and self-empowerment that have underpinned the Macedonian liberation cause, without which there would be no Macedonia, Macedonian nation or Macedonian Orthodox Church to speak of today.

[aleksandrov]

Page 4, Part 2, Clause 5:

(1) There is constituted by this Act a CORPORATION under the CORPORATE name of the Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust.

(2) The Trust is to consist of the following members:

(a) the Metropolitan.
(b) the Deputy Bishop,
(c) a representative from the monasteries of the Church, who is APPOINTED BY THE METROPOLITAN,
(d) the Diocesan Secretary,
(e) 2 clerics of the Church, being current members of the Diocesan Ruling Committee, who are APPOINTED BY THE METROPOLITAN,
(f) the deputy president of the Diocesan Assembly,
(g) 3 lay persons, being current members of the Diocesan Ruling Committe, who are APPOINTED BY THE BISHOP.

Page 4, Part 2, Clause 7:

(1) The functions of the Trust are as follows:

...

(d) to mortgage, charge or otherwise encumber trust property,
...
(g) to do and suffer ALL OTHER THINGS (whether or not of the kind referred to in this section) that the Metropolitan considers to be necessary, appropriate or desirable,
(h) to do and suffer all other things that BODIES CORPORATE may, by law, do and suffer and that are necessary for or incidental to the exercise of its functions under this Act.


Page 6, Part 2, Clause 13, Arrangements for OTHER CHURCHES to use trust property

(1) In this section, scheme of co-operation means a scheme entered into by the Trust:

(a) with or involving a CHURCH OF ANOTHER DENOMINATION or ANY CONGREGATION OR ACTIVITY of such a church, and

(b) concerning the use of trust property.

Page 7, Part 2, Clause 14 Trusts may be varied

(1) The Trust may by resolution declare that, IN ITS OPINION, it has become impossible or INEXPEDIENT to carry out or observe the terms of a trust of property vested in it, whether as to its purpose or any other of its terms.

(2) The Trust may, by the same or later resolution, DECLARE THAT THE PROPERTY IS SUBJECT TO ANOTHER TRUST and, on the making of such declaration:

(a) THE TRUST THAT IS TO REPLACED CEASES, and
(b) THE PROPERTY IS TO BE HELD SUBJECT TO ANOTHER TRUST.

[makedonche]

I would urge all Macedonians to read the entirety of these documents to get a full understanding of the "Macedonian Situation".
Macedonians today are where we are due to actions of Macedonians and other nationalities - and also due to inactions of Macedonians and other nationalities.
Let there be no misunderstanding here, the longer we wait for assistance or help from other sources the longer our destiny is put in the hands of others, let us not wait to be shown the way - but discover it for ourselves under our own steam using our own resources, because help/assistance/borrowing from other sources comes at a cost, and I for one am not prepared to pay the price!

[julie]

Amen Makedonche!

[Makedonetz]

I prey all our macedonian brother and sisters in Australia keep to their beliefs and show how strong our name is united as one with our churches behind us. That man appears very dangerous....i hope God blesses us and the right choices are made. Keep the fight there bratka ej Sestri

[aleksandrov]

...Lastly, to bring to your attention, the Jole K. DISINFORMATION PROPAGANDA MACHINE has reacted and has slanderously attacked you in a new disinformation piece in mn ("Makedonska nacija"):

...

As for MN, it is (or looks like) a front for DMPNE, IMO!

http://www.mn.mk/impresum

Главен и одговорен уредник: Мане Јаковлески....

Not only does Mane Jakovlevski allow Bishop Petar's flock to abuse "Makedonska Nacija" to dishonestly slander the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia as "anti-Macedonian", while denying it a right of reply, but he also abuses the name of DOOM's historic publication to present the MPO's current leader out as a Macedonian patriot "like the others from the diaspora". See this post on his "Makedonska Nacija" Facebook profile:

MAKEDONSKA NACIJA За прашањето за името и актуелниот спор со Грција, и најстарата
организација на Македонците МПО во Америка има ист став со другите од дијапората.

„Знаеме дека актуелната влада во Македонија има
знаење, ентузијазам и нема намера да го смени името. Ние го поддржуваме
тој став 100%. Сакаме Македонија да остане Република Македонија“,
вели Алушев претседателка на МПО.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/MAKEDONSKA-NACIJA/127725938744

How convenient is it that Jakovlevski neglected to obtain or publish any statement by Aljushev as to whether the Macedonian people are ethnic Bulgarians or a distinct indigenous Macedonian people?

Could Jakovlevski's (or should I say DPMNE's?) hypocrisy be any more extreme?