Buktop, Do you have their list of achievements for 2009?
United Macedonia Diaspora
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МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.
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Let's throw up a hypothetical situation here, let's just say, that the Macedonian Government did accept a name change in the UN, and the UMD (as was shown in any case with the 'democratic' prefix) were supportive of this. Then another name change was agreed for bilateral use with Greece, again, with the support of the UMD (as was also shown).
All of their accomplishments thus far would have been dwarfed to insignificance were this situation to transpire, and the animosity towards them would be much greater than it is now, of that I can assure everybody.
Buktop, would you, in such a situation, still support the UMD? I don't think you would, but let me know either way.
We should be thankful that it never reached that stage, but the fact that the UMD were willing to support such a move at the time, and the danger it posed to the Macedonian identity, can never be forgotten. It is a lesson learned, for nearly everyone except (ironically) the UMD.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Buktop View PostHave you visited their website yet? There are a great deal of achievements that you should take a look at.
I am not saying that they are gods who's every move deserves praise, I am just saying that they do not deserve half of the hatred that we have seen. Constructive criticism is one thing, out right maliciousness is a different matter that holds no place in the Macedonian Diaspora.
I can only really see a couple of achievements and most of them were in relation to charity work. In terms of addressing issues of national importance, UMD hasn't achieved anything. But please point out what you think they have "achieved".If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostLet's throw up a hypothetical situation here, let's just say, that the Macedonian Government did accept a name change in the UN, and the UMD (as was shown in any case with the 'democratic' prefix) were supportive of this. Then another name change was agreed for bilateral use with Greece, again, with the support of the UMD (as was also shown).
All of their accomplishments thus far would have been dwarfed to insignificance were this situation to transpire, and the animosity towards them would be much greater than it is now, of that I can assure everybody.
Buktop, would you, in such a situation, still support the UMD? I don't think you would, but let me know either way.
We should be thankful that it never reached that stage, but the fact that the UMD were willing to support such a move at the time, and the danger it posed to the Macedonian identity, can never be forgotten. It is a lesson learned, for nearly everyone except (ironically) the UMD.
That is right, it should be a lesson learned, and to tell you the truth, I doubt UMD will ever make such statements again."I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostBuktop,
I can only really see a couple of achievements and most of them were in relation to charity work. In terms of addressing issues of national importance, UMD hasn't achieved anything. But please point out what you think they have "achieved"."I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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Originally posted by Buktop View PostNo I wouldn't.
That is right, it should be a lesson learned, and to tell you the truth, I doubt UMD will ever make such statements again.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Buktop View PostYou know exactly which definition I meant, I believe perhaps they should spend a little more time choosing words more carefully.
How do I lack honesty Phoenix? Can you show me where I have lied about my feelings on this issue? Can you show me where I have misrepresented the facts in a blatant or intentional manner?
Koloski has made many unfortunate statements and the direction where he leads his organization could have serious ramifications for the wider Macedonian community, you prefer to act as his apologist rather than risk your close relationship with him, that's being dishonest to yourself and the interests of the broader Macedonian community.
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Originally posted by Phoenix View PostBuktop, you lack honesty to the cause because of your unqustioning friendship with Koloski. It may be an admirable quality to defend a close pal at all costs but your defence goes beyond the typical relationship of a mutual friendship, in this case the costs are astronomically much higher.
Koloski has made many unfortunate statements and the direction where he leads his organization could have serious ramifications for the wider Macedonian community, you prefer to act as his apologist rather than risk your close relationship with him, that's being dishonest to yourself and the interests of the broader Macedonian community.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by UMDiaspora.org View PostAgain Pelister's BS. Where has UMD tried to silence many good Macedonians who believe they are descendants of the ancient Macedonians?
Од Обединетата македонска дијаспора велат дека најавената посета на Бакојани не е за изненадување. Очекуваат таа да присуствува на свечениот банкет што секоја година на крајот од март го организира американскиот претседател во чест на грчкиот ден на независноста. На прослава се покануваат по околу 250 највлијателни Грци во Америка. Македонците [OMDovcite] велат дека до тогаш имаат време да се подготват за лобирање, но порачуваат да се внимава со провокациите од македонска страна.
So, UMDovci consider Macedonia and Macedonians promoting and celebrating their ancient heritage as a PROVOCATION to HellAss. That is the message coming through and is no different to Frchkovski, Crvenkovski, and the rest of the anti-Macedonian clique in RoM.
Како пример ја даваат антимакедонската резолуција која Грците се обидуваат да ја протнат во Конгресот од 94-тата година. Она што загрижува е што со текот на времето таа добива се поголем број на поддржувачи.
„Повеќето конгресмени ја поддржаа таа резолуција поради тоа што се преименува аеродромот “Александар Македонски“.
Мислам, аргументите беа на страна на Грците и ги искористија многу добро,
така што треба малку и претпазливи да бидеме со такви потези. Нели имаше и пред Букурешт Премиерот постави цвеќе на гробот на Гоце Делчев и на тој гроб имало мапа на Голема Македонија. Тоа многу го искористија Грците во Америка и добија повеќе поддршка од сенаторите и конгресмените поради тоа„ , изјави Методија Колоски, претседател на Обединетата македонска дијаспора.
Тврдењата дека Македонија спроведува националистичка пропаганда со територијални претензии кон Грција, Бакојани минатата година пред сите членови на Комисијата за надворешна политика на Сенатот го аргументирала со фотографијата со Премиерот пред картата на голема Македонија.
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This is the last post on another thread and indicates evasion on Meto's (IME, UMD is nothing more than MK and his cheering squad of American adolescent puppets/muppets) part.
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Originally posted by Phoenix View PostBuktop, you lack honesty to the cause because of your unqustioning friendship with Koloski. It may be an admirable quality to defend a close pal at all costs but your defence goes beyond the typical relationship of a mutual friendship, in this case the costs are astronomically much higher.
Koloski has made many unfortunate statements and the direction where he leads his organization could have serious ramifications for the wider Macedonian community, you prefer to act as his apologist rather than risk your close relationship with him, that's being dishonest to yourself and the interests of the broader Macedonian community.
I worked with Meto at MOYANA 6 years ago, from then to about 2 months ago I had not spoken with him. I never said we were best friends or that we both hang out. From what I could see when I worked with him is that he is very devoted and professional in his passion for Macedonia.
I respect the fact that you guys don't agree with the statements he made, but to completely undermine everything that UMD and Meto have achieved and will achieve based on a few statements. These discussions on his previous statements have achieved their goal in conveying the grievances of the Diaspora, and I feel that UMD and it's board members will learn from their mistakes. To continually attack Meto, UMD and myself for supporting UMD, with no intention of being constructive shows me that you allow your prejudices to take precedence over the general welfare of Macedonians and Macedonian issues. Your blind hatred is detrimental to the forum and the cause.
Originally posted by VangelovskiIts also being dishonest with Meto and leading him to believe that what he's doing has the support of the wider community."I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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...........така што треба малку и претпазливи да бидеме со такви потези. Нели имаше и пред Букурешт Премиерот постави цвеќе на гробот на Гоце Делчев и на тој гроб имало мапа на Голема Македонија. Тоа многу го искористија Грците во Америка и добија повеќе поддршка од сенаторите и конгресмените поради тоа„ , изјави Методија Колоски, претседател на Обединетата македонска дијаспора.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Just a few 'suggestions' for the good folk at UMD...and a couple of factual 'corrections' if you will...
At the Bucharest Summit in April 2008, NATO affirmed that Macedonia would become a fully fledged member of the alliance once its bilateral name dispute with Greece is resolved. Nearly two years later, Greece continues to block Macedonia's NATO membership and has extended its obstructionism to Skopje's ambitions to accede to the European Union, despite widespread support in the region and from the broader Euro-Atlantic community.
The Adriatic-3 countries--Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia--have successfully completed their Membership Action Plans, and as a result, Albania and Croatia have taken their seat at the alliance's table. It is well past time for Macedonia to join them. The United States must work with Macedonia's allies within NATO to push their accession up the agenda and pressure Greece to abide by NATO's long-standing precedent that one country does not block another's membership on a purely bilateral matter.
Use the correct terminology, leave “Adriatic-3” and “A-3” to diplomatic shorthand and other jargon
Greek Obstructionism
Despite the fact that more than 120 countries have recognized Macedonia by its constitutional name, Greece asserts that the Republic of Macedonia gives the nation a territorial claim over Greece's northern region of the same name.[1] Under Article 10 of the North Atlantic Treaty, all decisions on NATO enlargement must be made by unanimous consent, so Greek opposition alone is enough to block Macedonia's entry to NATO. However, bilateral disputes have traditionally been resolved outside of the alliance (such as Slovenia's border dispute with Croatia) so that one member alone does not block the consensus decisions of the others.
Greece’s actions need to be highlighted that are specific to the Republic of Macedonia and in the more general but equally frustrating examples of Greece abusing its veto right on other aspirant countries, in different Euro-Atlantic organizations but who are linked by the same concepts.
Greece undoubtedly has the upper hand, unashamedly wielding its veto power over Macedonia's accession despite a 1995 interim accord between the two nations agreeing not to do so. Instead of using its power to advance the stability of the transatlantic alliance, Greece is abusing its dominant position to advance its own narrow aims, which will invariably impact regional security.
Macedonia's patience is not inexhaustible, and it continues to bear the costs of courting NATO without enjoying the full benefits of membership. It will inevitably become costlier politically for Skopje to justify the time and expense of chasing NATO accession as well as its increased commitment to NATO missions such as Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Iraq. Further, Macedonia--having recently increased its troop commitment to 250--currently has more troops serving under NATO in Afghanistan than does Greece.
Eleven Macedonian peacekeepers perished in a helicopter crash on their way home after serving in BiH Operation ALTHEA in 2008. That’s a very high cost to pay to an organization that doesn’t respect ones right to self determination.
For Operation-ALTHEA, ARM provides 12 personnel. That’s greater than the contributions of Lithuania (1), Luxemburg (1), Estonia (2), Finland (4), France (4), UK (9) and is on par with Albania’s total of 13 troops. http://www.euforbih.org/eufor/index....=145&Itemid=62
We have to move away from this idea that what happens at NATO and the EU are mutually exclusive, both organizations are integral cogs of the Euro-Atlantic machinery.
Iraq was not a NATO operation
The NATO website puts Macedonia’s troop deployment to Afghanistan at a robust 165. This figure represents a larger human contribution than the Greeks (15) but also other NATO members including Estonia (155), Latvia (155), Lithuania (155), Luxembourg (9), Portugal (105) and Slovenia (70). Macedonia’s contribution also exceeds that of some NATO partner countries including Austria (3), Ireland (7), Finland (90) and Azerbaijan (90) as well as current Adriatic Charter members Bosnia and Herzegovina (10) and Montenegro (nil)
The Way Forward
The U.N.-mediated talks, supporting bilateral negotiations, should continue separately from the issue of Macedonia's accession to NATO. Therefore significant diplomatic pressure will have to be applied to Athens to overcome their opposition.
The NATO document, ‘The Alliance’s Strategic Concept’ , approved in April 1999 in Washington is awash with references to “integration”, “accession of new members”, “common values”, “democracy”, “human rights”, “the rule of law” and even “sovereignty” but somehow these words and terms have a different meaning for the Republic of Macedonia, the “common values” of the NATO members seem to be at odds with the “human rights” and “sovereignty” of the Republic of Macedonia, thereby challenging the very concept of “democracy” leaving one to ponder who’s “rule of law” are we working to and at what cost is this “integration” to the “common values” of the Macedonian’s?
Macedonia has a number of powerful advocates within the alliance to push the issue, including Austrian Minister for European and International Affairs Michael Spindelegger, Slovenian Prime Minister Borut Pahor, and NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. Significantly, the Supreme Allied Commander Europe's political advisor, Ambassador Lawrence Butler, is a former U.S. ambassador to Macedonia. And American leadership on this matter is essential.
Slovenia is a minnow and NATO newcomer, it contributes significantly less forces to Afghanistan than Macedonia, although its support is appreciated one needs to question its impact. Slovenia’s past history as rotating EU President has shown that they’re incapable of standing up to the more powerful and vocal members of the EU and their own threats against Croatia have shown that they too are disrespectful of the concepts of “inclusion” when there are self serving agendas that are far more important.
On the other hand the Republic of Macedonia enjoys a strong relationship with a very long serving NATO member, Turkey. The Turks are the only NATO member that has insisted to footnote all NATO documents stating it recognizes Macedonia, where the hell are our other so called “powerful advocates” to match this gesture of solidarity with the Republic of Macedonia in this difficult period?
Both U.S. Ambassador to NATO Ivo Daalder and President Obama have also been vocal supporters of NATO enlargement. NATO expansion has traditionally enjoyed strong bipartisan support in the United States, and the Obama Administration should rally congressional support for NATO's Open Door Policy, specifically pushing for the accession of Macedonia in time for the 2010 Lisbon Summit at the end of the year. Ambassador Daalder should also use the U.S.'s diplomatic channels in Europe, in concert with his colleagues in Athens, to increase international pressure on Greece to resolve this matter expeditiously.
A Fair Solution
NATO expansion has been a major success story for the alliance and has played a crucial role in stabilizing and reforming large parts of Europe. Greece was itself brought into the alliance in 1952 on the first wave of enlargement to advance Europe's strategic reach in southern Europe. Macedonia has chosen a Euro-Atlantic path for its future and met its obligations to qualify for future membership, liberalizing its economy and professionalizing its military. It has shown itself to be capable of providing--not just consuming--security and has constitutionally mandated that it has no territorial aspirations against its neighbors.[2] Its membership prospects must finally be advanced before the window of opportunity closes.
NATO must send a clear message that it remains open for business and that accession is possible for all free, democratic nations in Europe.
UMD need to be a lot more honest as well and appropriate blame accordingly not selectively...
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Originally posted by Buktop View PostYou also let your prejudices blind you Vangelovski, rather than staying with UMD and helping from the inside you let your pride take hold of your judgment and the overall cause has suffered.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Excellent post Phoenix and I whole-heartedly agree! NATO itself needs to be made aware of its' own hypocrisy, against it's own declarations, agreements and strategic concepts.
On a minor note, the author of the article is Sally McNamara.
Sally McNamara is Senior Policy Analyst in European Affairs in the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom, a division of the Kathryn and Shelby Cullom Davis Institute for International Studies, at The Heritage Foundation.
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