Originally posted by Risto the Great
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United Macedonia Diaspora
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МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.
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Can I just state again, for the 100th time, that this joker's post had no content. It consisted of one or two lines at the very most, and went something like the below:
"I can't believe all this crap I am reading about all of you anti-UMD posters, what have you done for the community, the UMD have achieved so much, bla, bla, bla......"
Even that above does it more justice than it should. There was nothing in his post, this individual is merely upset that his maiden post (rant) was deleted and he was advised to post it in the appropriate thread. It's being made out to be some sort of "big revelation", it wasn't, don't give this joker undue credit for nothing. If there was a shred of normality in his post, or if it was anything more than a few lines of idiocy, I would have merged it to this thread.
That's as simple as it is. Does anybody require a further explanation? I couldn't care less who he is or what he represents, everybody can have their say here, but when someone arrives a year after a discussion was initiated, and does exactly the opposite of what most people here were requesting (to keep the UMD dribble in one thread), I will act on it accordingly. And I did.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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mvb9999, you want to make yourself useful since you signed up here? Address the below:
http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/305/51/ Comment: In this letter the UMD make reference to the American policy on having Macedonia admitted to NATO by the 'provisional reference' with the acronym 'f.y.r.o.m', as per the Interim Accord, which the UMD believe had "normalized relations" between Macedonia and Greece.
Once you can do that and have caught up, then ramble. Until then, you can keep up with your dribble.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by mvb9999 View PostLet me ask you a question RTG: Other than the fact that you presumably disagree with UMD's pro-EU/NATO stance (correct me if I'm wrong), do you feel betrayed by the UMD? Do you feel that UMD lead you to believe A, and then obviously did B, therefore leading you to not trust them?
Originally posted by mvb9999 View PostIf you still have the letter, I would love to see it.
The Macedonian Truth Organisation (MTO) thanks the European Parliament for taking the time to consider issues affecting Macedonia and the possibility of joining the European Union in the European Parliament resolution of 10 February 2010 on the 2009 progress report on Macedonia. We accept the prospect of EU membership has
Let me know where you depart from the MTO with respect to the European Parliament response. Seriously how could the UMD do anything but denounce the EU charade if they were self respecting Macedonians?
Originally posted by mvb9999 View PostMy feeling on the EU is that it is essentially a country club, and that only members have any sort of pull. I feel that the EU's pro-Greek stance on Macedonia vs. Greece bilateral issues is very soft and paper thin, and that a lot of Greece's "friends" are simply taking the path of least resistance by siding with Greece by default, or perhaps put differently, they are not yet pissed off enough with Greece's demands to actually change the EU rules about vetoes on new membership. I also think Macedonia should keep the denar.
Originally posted by mvb9999 View PostOne thing that I feel needs to be a priority for the Diaspora is human rights in Egej, Pirin, Mala Prespa... I am very tempted by the dream that one day, the Treaty of Bucharest borders will become irrelevant, that people, trade, ideas will travel freely from Lerin to Bitola to Gorna Dzumaja and back again. Is this just a dream? I don't know... maybe. But I think that an actual reunification of Macedonia is ... well, even more of a dream. So, I would take second best, if means that the Egejci and Pirinci get their rights and a chance to survive long term.
Originally posted by mvb9999 View PostTrust is a gift... I don't have any reason not to trust you. But I'd like to hear your battle plans for taking over Solun... I think I'll take out some life insurance first and find the biggest helmet I can find
My plan for Solun involves finding a young Goce Delchev, then putting him on a white Arabian stud (horse not man) and having him charge to the tower as his legions follow behind him. Can you recommend a good modern day Delcev?Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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That is nonsense. Trust is earned.
Here is the link to the suggested wording that the UMD is still free to use:
http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2929МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.
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Originally posted by mvb9999As for your suggestion, "move on"... that's a good one, I like it.
The language and attitude used in your UMD 'releases' aren't exactly a mirror image of your imaturity here, are they? You are still a board member, correct? You must be. And fancy that, you come here like some innocent little man that has been 'cheap tricked', when all along, your agenda was obvious. Next time avoid the knee-jerk reactions, it's a testament to your character (or lack thereof).In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
I agree. The "for" part can only be aligned with the Macedonian Cause.
We all have to remember that there are so many important parts to the Macedonian Cause - preserving the name, passing the language down to our children, making sure our local communities are strong, and so on... Everyone that cares, needs to find out what issues are most important to him/her and work towards them. We should all respect anyone that volunteers his/her time to move our communities in the right direction. When things aren't moving in the right direction, we need to speak up and at the same time pair those words with actions. Work harder and volunteer more at the organizations that you think make a difference and/or have made a difference in the shaping of your Macedonian identity. Most importantly, make sure that you pass on the language to your children. The language is tied to everything.
Forums may sometimes get heated, but they are necessary.
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Hi Risto,
Wow it seems like I've got everyone's attention!
I'll try my best to address your points in a way that you find satisfactory.
Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostGood question. Of course I feel betrayed. They have tried to be all things to all people so much so that it has never been clear what they in fact are.
I feel that they NEVER adequately explained why their leader advocated a name change.
Regardless of this ongoing issue, I still don't see UMD as "anti-Macedonian" by any stretch, and in case you are wondering, no, I do not advocate any name change whatsoever, and neither do the members or leadership of UMD.
I feel that their leader struggles to come to terms with this failure in his approach and has never dealt with it in a suitable fashion.
To see the hollow UMD statements about never changing the name of Macedonia and then justifications as recent as a few months ago as to why it might not be so bad. Well, what can I say, was your leader speaking on behalf of the UMD again? I will assume so.
Here is the link to the suggested wording that the UMD is still free to use:
The Macedonian Truth Organisation (MTO) thanks the European Parliament for taking the time to consider issues affecting Macedonia and the possibility of joining the European Union in the European Parliament resolution of 10 February 2010 on the 2009 progress report on Macedonia. We accept the prospect of EU membership has
Let me know where you depart from the MTO with respect to the European Parliament response. Seriously how could the UMD do anything but denounce the EU charade if they were self respecting Macedonians?
MTO Response in relation to European Parliament Resolution
The Macedonian Truth Organisation (MTO) thanks the European Parliament for taking the time to consider issues affecting Macedonia and the possibility of joining the European Union in the European Parliament resolution of 10 February 2010 on the 2009 progress report on Macedonia.
We accept the prospect of EU membership has indeed driven many of the reform processes in Macedonia. We agree with many of the resolutions and note how well Macedonia has progressed in relation to fulfilling the Copenhagen Criteria. However, we are concerned with some matters pertaining to your resolution specifically in relation to the following statements included in your review of Macedonia’s Political Development and Regional Issues;
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8. Draws particular attention to the ongoing process of decentralisation, which is an important step in terms of helping the country to function better and improving inter-ethnic relations; stresses that, in order to ensure the successful implementation of this process, municipalities must be provided with sufficient funds to carry out their new tasks, and that their capacity to perform the competences transferred must be enhanced;
We agree with the European Parliaments earlier statement in the resolution that political stability is the common goal broadly shared by the country's political actors and ethnic groups. We fail to see how encouragement of the process of decentralization assists this goal. In fact, we view it as an attempt to encourage further instability with a final consequence being complete federalisation of Macedonia based on ethnic identities. We find no evidence of benefits exceeding the many costs in relation to this strategy. Why would the European Parliament seek to involve themselves in this "gamble"?
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29. Recalls that, in accordance with the relevant European Council conclusions of 19 and 20 June 2008 and those of the General Affairs and Foreign Affairs Councils of 7 and 8 December 2008 and 8 December 2009, maintaining good neighbourly relations, including a negotiated and mutually acceptable solution on the name issue, continues to be essential;
30. Welcomes, to this end, the new, more positive climate between the governments of Macedonia and Greece following the recent elections in Greece and, in particular, the recent meetings between the two prime ministers; encourages the two countries to redouble their efforts at the highest level, especially in the framework of UN negotiations, in order to find a mutually satisfactory solution to the name issue, under the auspices of the UN, and stresses that the European Union should be ready to assist in the negotiation process; notes with concern the use of historical arguments in the current debate, including the recent phenomenon of so-called "antiquisation", which is liable to increase tensions with neighbours and create new internal divisions;
The MTO is of the firm and substantiated belief that forcing Macedonia to change its name is a fundamental breach of human rights and is a direct attack on the sovereignty of Macedonia.
We are of the perception that the European Parliament appears to embrace Greece’s historical arguments whilst condemning Macedonia for any attempts to introduce debate on historical matters.
We are not completely sure whose “historical arguments” are being attacked by the European Parliament in this current debate. Most Macedonians believe their fundamental human rights as Macedonians (not ancient Macedonians) should be more than adequate to be used in any naming debate.
However, should Greece feel compelled to persist with historical debates, Macedonia is more than entitled to debate vigorously on these matters. With tens of thousands sites of archeological significance in Macedonia, there remains more than enough arguments for both common and uniquely identifying factors of historical significance.
Of particular concern to the MTO is the adoption of the “antiquisation” terminology introduced by the Macedonian opposition party and now embraced by the European Parliament. We note no names were mentioned by the European Parliament but feel compelled to remind the European Parliament that Greece has been doing this for the last 180 years starting from the “katharevousa” language experiment and ultimately culminating in a blatant denial of the existence of minorities living within its borders. Preferring instead to believe they are all direct descendants of ancient Hellenes instead. We do accept the process of “antiquisation” has transpired in many countries including Greece, Macedonia, England, France and Holland amongst others and believe the process was used to help forge national identities in many instances.
We would like to introduce a new term called “Macedonianisation” and contend that Greece has been going through what can only be described as a thorough “Macedonianisation” over the last 20 years. Examples including the renaming of the Micra airport in Thessaloniki to “MACEDONIA” through to the process of “cash for comments” by historians and journalists. (During 1989 to 1993 from secret funds of the Greek Foreign Ministry headed by Andonis Samaras, Greek journalists received $130 million dollars (US) to promote the "greekness of Macedonia" according to the testimony of former Prime Minister Constantinos Mitsotakis.).
Macedonians are more than justified in being offended with attacks on their identity given the ongoing attempts by consecutive Governments of Greece to negate and re-define them. The European Parliament should exercise caution in encouraging Greece to remain in such a position of belligerence.
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32. Underlines the importance of reconciliation and understanding in the region, which are part and parcel of European values and principles, and encourages the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and neighbouring countries to engage actively in developing and implementing confidence-building measures in the fields of education and cross-border cooperation and generating a common understanding of history;
calls on the authorities of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and neighbouring countries to avoid actions and statements which might adversely affect such efforts; notes that joint celebrations of common historic events with neighbouring EU Member States contribute to a better understanding of history and the maintenance of good neighbourly relations;
33. Calls on the authorities in the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to take the necessary measures to discourage "hate speech" relating to neighbouring EU Member States in the media and similar statements in school textbooks;
Greece denies the existence of a Macedonian minority (amongst others) within its own borders even though the existence of ethnic Macedonians (from Greece) as minorities in all corners of the globe is readily proven. It would be impossible to reach consensus with Greece in relation to historical matters. What Greece often interprets as “hate speech” many others merely interpret as an affirmation of minority and/or human rights. Court cases held in the European courts have confirmed the prevailing attitudes in Greece in relation to its minorities. The Greeks have already been held accountable for their actions a number of times in the past.
The MTO is concerned that there appear to be two sets of rules as they apply to existing EU members like Greece and candidate countries like Macedonia. The consistent theme from this European Parliament resolution is that Macedonia is the only country to blame and, as a consequence, is the only country that must change. We cannot accept this as a statement of fact and strongly wish to register our disappointment with the European Parliament for not insisting Greece focus on its much more important economic issues rather than seeking to deny the rights of Macedonians.
I almost agree. Except in the EU country club only the STRONG members have any pull. Germany says jump, Greece says "you will have to remove your penis out of my arse first".
But surely you have seen what human rights within the EU framework means! Look at my letter and get back to me. Do you want to join these guys that bad?
That is nonsense. Trust is earned.
My plan for Solun involves finding a young Goce Delchev, then putting him on a white Arabian stud (horse not man) and having him charge to the tower as his legions follow behind him. Can you recommend a good modern day Delcev?
I know you tried it already with Mitreski and it failed. But, let me suggest that you send your letter to me by email:
mvb9999@gmail.com
Include with your email anything else you feel is relevant; your previous communications with Mitreski, how you would like to see the letter used, etc.
The tempers have been flaring for so long; let me act as a kind of messenger for you.
I hope you take me up on my offer. The way I see it, it is a win-win for the MTO. If this idea succeeds, then it represents one small baby step towards establishing some kind trust with UMD. If this fails, then you will have another reason to harp on UMD, more arrows for your quiver... win-win.
Give it a try, RTG. I have to believe that there is a way for the MTO and the UMD to begin a peace process of some kind, or at least a ceasefire. Maybe this could be the first step?
I look forward to hearing from you.
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За состојбата на малцинствата мора да се k
For comments, questions, concerns, please contact us at:
United Macedonian Diaspora
http://www.umdiaspora.org
1101 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, 6th Floor, Washington, D.C. 20004, United States
Phone: (202) 756-2244, Fax: (202) 756-7323, E-mail: info@umdiaspora.org
PO Box 2153, Hawthorn, Vic. 3122, Australia
Phone: 0438 385 466, E-mail: australia@umdiaspora.org
3555 St. Clair Avenue East, Toronto, ON, M1K 1L6, Canada
Phone: 416-209-0448, E-mail: canada@umdiaspora.org
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Originally posted by mvb9999 View PostI've seen the Youtubes, and I've seen the so-called evidence related to this, and I think its pretty shaky. No one is perfect, and I'm sure there are things any leader of any organization has said, who then later looked back and thought, I wish I had said that differently or I wish I had been more clear and to the point. As far as what Meto specifically said or didn't say, I will leave it up to him to answer you or not answer you. As I've stated many times before, I am here as an individual, and the views that I express are my own.
I think you can give up the charade.
The only other "leaders" that I can think of who have publically advocated for a name change are Crvenkovski and Georgievski. Granted, we could include Gligorov who actually did change our name.
As for the name negotiations not equating treason, I can only assume you are a vassal or insane.Last edited by Vangelovski; 06-09-2010, 06:05 PM.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Branov,
You can add Manevski to that list:
Let me ask you this? What will you choose?
People in Macedonia dying and starving or “Democratic Republic of Macedonia”?
Denis Manevski, UMD Treasurer
17 March 2008
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macedo.../message/10643If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostBranov,
I think you can give up the charade.
The only other "leaders" that I can think of who have publically advocated for a name change are Crvenkovski and Georgievski. Granted, we could include Gligorov who actually did change our name.
As for the name negotiations not equating treason, I can only assume you are a vassal or insane.
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Originally posted by Mr Brandy View PostVangelovski - this is what talking about - why don't you just argue the facts and leave out the " I can only assume you are a vassal or insane" part - it cheapens your earlier statement and does nothing to further your point.
What facts do you want to argue in relation to the name negotiations? Its a clear example of vassal policies. Do you understand what a vassal/vassal state is?
The only alternative I can think of is insanity. Perhaps you can provide another?
This is an existential battle - don't think that I'm here to sugarcoat treason in order to save hurt feelings. When I say open and honest debate, I mean it.Last edited by Vangelovski; 06-09-2010, 06:46 PM.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostBrandy,
What facts do you want to argue in relation to the name negotiations? Its a clear example of vassal policies. Do you understand what a vassal/vassal state is?
The only alternative I can think of is insanity. Perhaps you can provide another?
This is an existential battle - don't think that I'm here to sugarcoat treason in order to save hurt feelings. When I say open and honest debate, I mean it.
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostBrandy,
What facts do you want to argue in relation to the name negotiations? Its a clear example of vassal policies. Do you understand what a vassal/vassal state is?
The only alternative I can think of is insanity. Perhaps you can provide another?
This is an existential battle - don't think that I'm here to sugarcoat treason in order to save hurt feelings. When I say open and honest debate, I mean it.
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