United Macedonia Diaspora

[Currency Trader]

Well here is the introduction:

Given the UMD "partnership" .... I would say it is the fault of the UMD for not being honest about the organisations that matter in Australia. Wouldn't you?

The way I see it, is that UMD is being pro-active here. They have their contacts and they have been in partnership to develop this survey. So, given this, its only natural that an organisation would look after its own presence. They have done the work.

But this does not mean they also hold the reponsibility to determine which organisations have the confidence of the Australian Macedonian community. Why should that be on their shoulders?

In fact, I think they are giving the vote of confidence by inserting a check box "No extent". They are actually putting themselves on the line here.

I asked you this question, not sure if you saw it:
Would you (Australian Macedonians) rather be excluded and non-existant from this survey?


Regards,
CT

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[Risto the Great]

The way I see it, is that UMD is being pro-active here. They have their contacts and they have been in partnership to develop this survey. So, given this, its only natural that an organisation would look after its own presence. They have done the work.

It is indeed a natural urge to look after one's own presence.
I don't think we will ever agree CT. If you can't grasp why the survey is bullshit due to UMD looking after "its presence" instead of trying to find the real contributors to the "roadmap" then this discussion is futile.

How many stupid questions in a survey should exist before it becomes meaningless?

I asked you this question, not sure if you saw it:
Would you (Australian Macedonians) rather be excluded and non-existant from this survey?

I think you are saying we should be happy that it is happening no matter how useless it is.
It is a rather average survey, it is not going to change the world. God forbid, the UMD leadership (who are known to use numerous online aliases) will skew the survey to amplify their significance. Smoke and mirrors yet again.

[Rogi]

The thing is, it is an online survey with no checks and bounds.

For example, the Greek community (or just a handful of Greeks) could have been running a silent campaign via one of their forums, to go and fill in this survey in the most damaging way to Macedonia and Australian-Macedonian relations - and they could have filled it in 50 times each - that is a very likely scenario.

I don't see any way that this survey checks that it is in fact the Australian Macedonian community that is voicing its' opinion via the survey and in that regard, this could prove to be quite damaging because the results will 'have to' be released.

[Currency Trader]

If you can't grasp why the survey is bullshit due to UMD looking after "its presence" instead of trying to find the real contributors to the "roadmap" then this discussion is futile.

Objectively, I certainly cannot fault someone who is pro-active and looking to strenghten its influence and presence by being part of a survey. Any lobby group would look after its own interests, but that doesn't mean the survey is "bullshit". What matters is the purpose and what it tries to achieve.

How many stupid questions in a survey should exist before it becomes meaningless?.

That depends on what you consider to be "stupid". Please share.

I note that you are attacking this survey from every possible angle. From stupid questions, to UMDs presence, to the fault of UMD for not determining the real contributors to the roadmap.

Out of curiousity, are you against the survey per se, or are you in-general against UMD itself? It would be good to know so I can understand where your rationale is coming from. If you don't mind of course.

I think you are saying we should be happy that it is happening no matter how useless it is?

You're dodging the question.

Would you (Australian Macedonians) rather be excluded and non-existant from this survey? A simple Yes or No.



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[Currency Trader]

The thing is, it is an online survey with no checks and bounds.

For example, the Greek community (or just a handful of Greeks) could have been running a silent campaign via one of their forums, to go and fill in this survey in the most damaging way to Macedonia and Australian-Macedonian relations - and they could have filled it in 50 times each - that is a very likely scenario.

I don't see any way that this survey checks that it is in fact the Australian Macedonian community that is voicing its' opinion via the survey and in that regard, this could prove to be quite damaging because the results will 'have to' be released.

Indeed an important point Rogi.

This is the contact person for the survey.

Quote from the survey:
"...if you want to discuss the project or be involved in other ways, please contact Joanne Pyke on joanne.pyke@vu.edu.au


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[UMDiaspora.org]

PM Gruevski to Speak at prestigious Chicago Council on Global Affairs

Prime Minister Gruevski will speak at the prestigious Chicago Council of Global Affairs on September 29, 2010 on the topic "Completing the Vision of a United Europe."

See event details: http://www.thechicagocouncil.org/chi...p?eventid=2269

[Risto the Great]

Objectively, I certainly cannot fault someone who is pro-active and looking to strenghten its influence and presence by being part of a survey. Any lobby group would look after its own interests, but that doesn't mean the survey is "bullshit". What matters is the purpose and what it tries to achieve.

That depends on what you consider to be "stupid". Please share.

Oh, so this is more about strengthening the UMD's influence and presence than provision of meaningful data. In this instance, it may just work. It just makes it a bullshit survey that is all.

Have you read the survey?
The question about the roadmap was drafted at the exclusion of infinitely more relevant Australian Macedonian organisations. If that is not a stupid thing, carry on with your defense. Perhaps a yes or no about the "stupid" thing would be timely.

I note that you are attacking this survey from every possible angle. From stupid questions, to UMDs presence, to the fault of UMD for not determining the real contributors to the roadmap.

Out of curiousity, are you against the survey per se, or are you in-general against UMD itself? It would be good to know so I can understand where your rationale is coming from. If you don't mind of course.

The roadmap question could have simply asked for names of other organisations if the UMD did not want to mention other names. Or it could have mentioned the key organisations in Australia.

You brought up the issue and justification for UMD's "presence", not me.

In general I am against the UMD nowadays. I used to be a strong advocate but their brand of "fabulous" does not sit well with me.

You're dodging the question.

Would you (Australian Macedonians) rather be excluded and non-existant from this survey? A simple Yes or No.

I think you can't understand my answer.
I would rather we don't waste a university's time with a survey designed to suit the agenda of any one organisation rather than revealing important matters about Macedonians in Australia. I did complete the survey if that helps you think better of me.

[Risto the Great]

Here is a question I drafted for a University survey:

Who will influence Macedonian-Australian relations the most over the next 12 months:

(a) Nikola Gruevski
(b) Julia Gillard
(c) Macedonian Truth Organisation
(d) All of the above
(e) None of the above

[Currency Trader]

Oh, so this is more about strengthening the UMD's influence and presence than provision of meaningful data. In this instance, it may just work. It just makes it a bullshit survey that is all..

Obviously, its not only about UMD strengthening their influence and presence, the survey would have to be meaningful and serve its purpose.

Have you read the survey?
The question about the roadmap was drafted at the exclusion of infinitely more relevant Australian Macedonian organisations. If that is not a stupid thing, carry on with your defense. Perhaps a yes or no about the "stupid" thing would be timely

Yes, regardless of what subject, surveys always have questions that are more important than others. There will always be people who believe that certain choices should exist more so than others. That's common sense.

So, its not about me defending a certain question other than understanding the rationale and argument for calling this survey a "cheap stunt".

The roadmap question could have simply asked for names of other organisations if the UMD did not want to mention other names. Or it could have mentioned the key organisations in Australia.

Sure, absolutely. It could have - but on this one, we both understand the selection choices (in this particular question) as being part of their collaborative work with the University.

This is where UMD is trying to show itself - and as I said, they are actually taking a risk and putting themselves on the line by not including other Macedonian-Australian names while letting people to choose whether or not they play a part in the roadmap relations.

In general I am against the UMD nowadays. I used to be a strong advocate but their brand of "fabulous" does not sit well with me.

Thanks for clarifying your personal and general position. It helps to understand your objectivness and rationale.

I did complete the survey if that helps you think better of me.

Its not about thinking better of you. I try to keep an objective view as much as I can. For me its about understanding how far people are willing to go.

You did call the survey a "cheap stunt" by UMD, you are in-general also against UMD, and you seem to think of the survey as "bullshit" with stupid questions.

Yet you still decided to participate and complete the survey. You were not willing to exclude yourself and be a non-existant Australian Macedonian based on your opinion of the survey.

Anyhow, its time to move forward. I'll end my participation here on this subject.


Regards.


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[Currency Trader]

Here is a question I drafted for a University survey:

Who will influence Macedonian-Australian relations the most over the next 12 months:

(a) Nikola Gruevski
(b) Julia Gillard
(c) Macedonian Truth Organisation
(d) All of the above
(e) None of the above

For sure "C" ;-)

[makedonche]

Not to expand this discussion to far off topic, but I'd say that Macedonians in various countries around world are members of UMD. Granted that not every member may like every decision, stipulation UMD has made, but their membership is reaching beyond the borders of "American Diaspora".

CT
This does not qualify UMD to claim they are either "the" voice/representation of "the" Diaspora or authorised by the Diaspora. This is where the misleading occurs and the misrepresentation comes from. Trying to attain credibility by nominating as a party to the survey without discussion or collaboration with the actual Diaspora.


I think they want to represent every possible Macedonian everywhere.
But why blame them for being on the survey? They are pro-active and I don't see any fault with that. In fact, there is actually an option to voice dissatisfaction: check the box "No extent".
CT
They may want to represent every possible Macedonian - but do the diaspora Macedonians want UMD reresenting them?
I like the fact they are pro-active, I don't like the methods used!
I blame them for being on the survey without dialogue from the diaspora. As for the checkbox, it wouldn't be needed if it was done with the diaspora's input.

This way, if those who filled it out check "No extent", then the survey (Australian Macedonians) will reflect no confidence in UMD.

CT
If that is the case it then becomes an embaressment and that information could be used by other parties to do more harm to the Macedonian Cause!



I'm asking because you said or implied that the survey is mis representing Australian Macedonians.

UMD is misrepresenting itself in puporting to act on behalf of the diaspora, the actual name "UMD" is a misrepresentation!





Keep bothering them.

CT
I am, all I got was another copy of the survey!





In your first post that I responded to, I didn't see any open questions, only a one-line statement of "mis-representation". So it would be impossible for me to claim that you are being unreasonable with your questions - Questions are always good, I encourage them.
CT
OK - am I being unreasonable with any of my remarks/questions?

The option of voicing concern before a survey is distributed can often be limited to outsiders, regardless of topic and who is doing it.

CT
Correct, but depending on the purpose and use of the survey, it would be more relevant if the appropriate parties were consulted, in order to have an input into it's substance and intent, otherwise it gives the appearance of a one sided survey designed by the party who has the most to gain from it.




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CT
I know you are keen to end this discussion, but would appreciate a reply.

[Risto the Great]

Obviously, its not only about UMD strengthening their influence and presence, the survey would have to be meaningful and serve its purpose.

Fair enough, we should just ignore the stupid question and hope it does not place a question mark over the entire survey. This is a reasonable conclusion and probably why I bothered to complete the survey.

This is where UMD is trying to show itself - and as I said, they are actually taking a risk and putting themselves on the line by not including other Macedonian-Australian names while letting people to choose whether or not they play a part in the roadmap relations.

You are making them sound like heroes. What precisely is your relationship with UMD? .... just so I can gauge your perspective and all.

Q: Would it be more or less of a risk if they showed the other (real) organisations?
I genuinely do not accept that an organisation with a membership of no more than an estimated 100 people in Australia is even worth mentioning in the question .... plain and simple. For you it is a monumental test of stoicism, for me it is rampant delusions of grandeur.

You did call the survey a "cheap stunt" by UMD, you are in-general also against UMD, and you seem to think of the survey as "bullshit" with stupid questions.

Yet you still decided to participate and complete the survey. You were not willing to exclude yourself and be a non-existant Australian Macedonian based on your opinion of the survey.

Anyhow, its time to move forward. I'll end my participation here on this subject.

Feel free to end your discussions. I will humour myself a little longer and repeat that I concluded that I would ignore the stupid question and hope it does not place a question mark over the entire survey.

Nothing life or death here, just typical UMD posturing that is all.

For sure "C" ;-)

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I was only joking of course. We certainly have more Macedonians reading the MTO than anything from the UMD so keep your eyes on the roadmap.

[Soldier of Macedon]

CT, a word of advice, careful. Not too long ago you were a vehement UMD 'defender', then you saw what they were all about. I fear you're returning back to your former views for the sake of some misguided 'objectivity'.

[Currency Trader]

CT
I know you are keen to end this discussion, but would appreciate a reply.

This does not qualify UMD to claim they are either "the" voice/representation of "the" Diaspora or authorised by the Diaspora. This is where the misleading occurs and the misrepresentation comes from. Trying to attain credibility by nominating as a party to the survey without discussion or collaboration with the actual Diaspora.

This particular topic will just expand the subject further than I intend to participate on. It can be discussed endlessly. I'd focus on what UMD is actively doing and what their policy is, rather than get stuck with their name. For me, its not the name that matters the most, but what policy they are driving and what they are trying to achieve.

They may want to represent every possible Macedonian - but do the diaspora Macedonians want UMD reresenting them?
I like the fact they are pro-active, I don't like the methods used!
I blame them for being on the survey without dialogue from the diaspora

There are diaspora Macedonians who accept UMD to represent them.

Their members most notably - As for methods they use, like everything else in life. There will always be differences of opinion of what should have been done and what should not have been done. I may like how they are pro-active, but in certain cases I would question some statements or action. That's only normal. The point is, every organisation will have its own set of "fans" and its own set of "enemies". This seems to be the case with Macedonian organisations.

I cannot blame them for being on the survey. After all, they are looking after their own interest for the work they are putting in.

OK - am I being unreasonable with any of my remarks/questions?

No I don't think so - Would it be fair to assume that you did not fill out the survey due to UMD's methods and role?

it would be more relevant if the appropriate parties were consulted, in order to have an input into it's substance and intent, otherwise it gives the appearance of a one sided survey designed by the party who has the most to gain from it.

If UMD is not the preferred organisation in Australia, then what do they stand to gain in your opinion?

Have you asked UMD why they didn't consult with appropriate parties for this survey?



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[julie]

CT , UMD will not answer any questions which do not see them in a golden light.