United Macedonia Diaspora

[Jankovska]

No response, Jankovska.

And I know of a couple people who left UMd because of ideological differences with its leadership - and the people who left were asking for nothing more than the defence and preservation of the Macedonian identity. UMd have said that they are not into the business of defending Macedonian rights ...etc, they are a different kind of political organization.

Honestly I am not very happy to hear you didn't receive any response. I would expect as a member of any organisation or organisation that represents my people to have time or people in place to reply to all questions and worries that people may have. It's not just about the members also about the people who are interested in the work of that organisation and may become members. I disagree that we should ask the UMD questions on a open forum, I think it's not quite right and they have every right to refuse and answer. Being a professional organisation they have contact details and everyone should contact them that way. I am very dissapointed that you didn't receive an answer Pelister, I hope we can blame it on lost in administration and hope that this is not what happenes all the time.
I do appreciate the UMD and the hard work that they put in and no one is saying they know the best, maybe they should have a suggestion board or something where other people can feel more invloved in the work and part of it.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

I'm not interested in shallow "unity" or appearing to be "united" because some 'dusmani' might be watching us.

I'm interested in REAL unity whereby we can unite around solid principles that have been thoroughly thought through and build upon the principles that have underpinned Macedonian movements over the past 150 years.

Any organisation that is going to make outlandish claims that it "represents" ALL Macedonians should be prepared to at least outline its policies and principles to the very people it purports to "represent".

If you are not interested, you shouldn't even bother to reply on this topic.

My interest is not gonna be compromised for the sake of what you call a "debate", and creating situation where everyone can say anything and not take the responsibility for it.

If anyone provide strong arguments to blame UMD or particular members, than it can be done.
But not in a "charshiski muabet" stile, just to put a doubt on someone.

Bratot, there is no need to suggest anyone is intentionally "stupid".
The thread was originally created to promote discussion about the UMD.
The notion of understanding the UMD's mission with clarity is of great interest to me.
Should they wish to discuss specific policies of a sensitive nature, then this is not the place for it.

Risto, I couldn't see a urge to be exposed by Vangelovski like that for something I suggested discretly in favour of keeping the discussion among us, not to bring in any lack of unity in front everyone who is watching us.

Or you have seen the Greeks to "discuss" like that on their forums!?

You don't seem to have much faith in the UMD and you have made that quite clear, that being the case, why are you still wasting your time in pursuit of them? It seems as though you want to 'expose' them for something, and, although I will admit that there have been some moments where better decisions could have been made by the UMD, to go so far as to claim that they are against the Macedonian people and state is absolute rubbish, and Tom, I think deep down you know this too. I think it is very unfortunate that a falling out has taken place between yourself and the UMD.

I have the same impression.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Perhaps you should read the part of my post that you highlighted again, and then read the next sentence.

I take FULL responsibility for what I say because I am using my REAL identity here, unlike you with your FAKE internet ID.

I also don't rely on "Charsiski Muabeti". In case you are unaware, I was one of the original co-founders of UMD and head of UMD Australia until I left about 8 months ago on the grounds of irreconcilable ideological differences, particularly with the American board membership.

SoM,

No organisation in the world can claim to represent ALL Macedonians for the simple fact that not ALL Macedonians are members of UMD, many don't even know that it exists or agree with many of their activities and public statements.

In relation to your first question, the ONLY organisation that I know of that does not openly elaborate what it stands for is UMD. UMD is the only organisation, that I know of, whose board members only provide their "personal" views, but the organisation as a whole is unable to provide its "official" view.

In relation to your second question, I am a member of a number of organisations in my local community and I maintain that membership because I agree with their policies. What organisation do you know of, that cannot answer simple, but fundamental questions about what they stand for?

Its like asking Green Peace what they stand for and them responding to you that they cannot tell you in a public forum, they can only answer you in private??? I thought the main role of UMD was to 'educate' policy makers (i.e., Governments) - well, what exactly are they 'educating' policy makers about? What is UMD's stance on fundamental issues of national importance?

I'm not asking UMD to reveal their next activity, when it will be undertaken and how. However, UMD needs to be open about what it is it stands for.

There have been so many contradictory public statements by UMD, many which have been detrimental to Macedonian national interests (I have discussed these on Maknews only to have Lubi delete them for reasons unknown). I am more than happy to post them here, but I don't want to waste my time if they are just going to be deleted again.

[Bratot]

So in fact the members of UMD are contradicting eachother.

And sorry Vangelovski, I'm not checking you up. It's not my biz to be aware who use what kind of nick on the forum.

If you insist I will put a last name in my forum nickname, which doesn't have to mean its mine.


Just from curiosity, what are the achievments so far.. of UMD?

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

My statement was that UMD (the organisation) has made contradictory public statements through press releases, interviews etc.

You can use whatever nickname you want, but its a bit rich for you to say that I don't take responsibility for what post here when in fact I am using my REAL name.

Perhaps I'm the wrong person to be asking what UMD has achieved?

[Bratot]

It was a general question to everyone involved in this discussion.

I'm recently in the Diaspora, althought half of my familly is for a long time.

And may I ask, why did you left UMD and didn't stayed to confrontate the policy of other members?

Whats gonna be next, since wrong persons are leading UMD?

Its quite disturbing to hear such statements.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Which statements in particular are you disturbed about?

After four years, our ideological differences were so great that I could no longer, in good conscious, remain with UMD.

[Bratot]

The one mentioned in this discussion. About the name-issue position.

[Vangelovski]

That's only ONE of a number of issues I would like to get a clear answer on.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No organisation in the world can claim to represent ALL Macedonians for the simple fact that not ALL Macedonians are members of UMD, many don't even know that it exists or agree with many of their activities and public statements.

I agree, and I am sure that whoever made that statement was not intending to have it interpreted as such. It could have been worded a little better to avoid the sharp responses by some, but I think the statement was in a manner which would indicate that when they are out there doing what they do, they are representing the Macedonian people, as other Macedonian organisations do, as other Macedonian organisations should. When they are out there promoting our people they represent all Macedonians, not just some or paying members. If a Macedonian organisation in Canberra does something detrimental to the cause it reflects bad on ALL Macedonians, not just the one's in Canberra, likewise if it does something positive. That is how I see it. UMD are not an official representative elected by the Macedonian people, they are a Macedonian organisation working to further the Macedonian cause, so when they do, by default, they represent us all. They have taken the initiative, they are the one's out there that are making themselves known and working pro-actively on a large scale, and as a result they too should understand that what they do reflects on us all and if things don't seem right they should be questioned, we all have that right, but things need to remain reasonable to maintain dialogue among all parties involved and interested.

In my first question I am asking you if there is an organisation out there as you envision it, not about the UMD. Is there?

With regard to your answer of my second question, are these organisations you are a member of developing in the international arena and generating as much activity as UMD? If so, who are they? If not, and I mean this in a positive way, why don't you make some moves to make and/or take it to that level and have your organisation's voice be heard on a large scale as UMD? I can see that you have alot of energy for the cause, which is always good, it will be better spent this way.

I'm not asking UMD to reveal their next activity, when it will be undertaken and how. However, UMD needs to be open about what it is it stands for.

What it stands for is stipulated in their mission statement, isn't it? What don't you agree with, what do you need to see or hear from the UMD?

There have been so many contradictory public statements by UMD, many which have been detrimental to Macedonian national interests (I have discussed these on Maknews only to have Lubi delete them for reasons unknown). I am more than happy to post them here, but I don't want to waste my time if they are just going to be deleted again.

No organisation is perfect and all have flaws and have made errors, if there are statements which are detrimental to our cause and you wish to genuinely challenge them without getting caught up in vindictive insults and slurs, then you are free to post what you wish.

By the way, Tom, I will ask you to not replicate Aleksandrov's behaviour here with harassing members for their personal details, it is an internet forum for Christ sake, I don't have any issues with you being here at all, but don't re-initiate this kind of psychopathic action from the past 'glory' days. I welcome your opinion, but the baggage stays there, not here. Can we agree on that?

[Risto the Great]

There have been so many contradictory public statements by UMD, many which have been detrimental to Macedonian national interests (I have discussed these on Maknews only to have Lubi delete them for reasons unknown). I am more than happy to post them here, but I don't want to waste my time if they are just going to be deleted again.

They will not be deleted here. The worst that will happen is that they will eventually hit the back of the forum due to lack of interest. Tom, it appears you have an axe to grind on this matter and it intrigues me why a former founding member feels this way. Because your heart certainly looks to be in the right place from my perspective. So I would appreciate you re-posting any public statements that represent departures from UMD's mission statement.

In relation to anonymity on the forum. I reiterate SoM's stance about this. Personally, I choose anonymity simply because it makes my life easier any time I return to Greece. To be banned form entering the country (and we know this happens) only has the potential to limit my ability to further the Macedonian cause there.

[Vangelovski]

SoM/RTG (I hope you don’t mind me using acronyms to refer to you)

I haven’t come across an organisation that runs exactly as I think it should, though there are many that come very close Regardless, just because they may not exist, it does not mean that one shouldn’t strive to create them.

The organisations that I am currently involved have, in my view, much more important and fundamental priorities. They are focused on teaching Macedonians what most others in Europe learned nearly 2 centuries ago through the ‘enlightenment’ and the political ‘revolutions’ that followed – and that is that they are free men and women who are capable of determining their own status.

I am critical of many organisations and individuals who make statements or undertake activities which are, in my view, detrimental to the Macedonian cause – as I define it I’m far more critical of SDSM and DPMNE than UMD, which is relatively harmless in comparison.

As far as UMD’s mission statement goes, it’s a fairly vague one-pager. Most organisations that I am aware of, have detailed policy documents that have gone through serious internal debate and are used as a basis for the leaders/public spokespeople of those organisation to answer detailed questions in public.

For example, I believe that two fundamental issues facing Macedonia today, among others, are the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. UMD has made many public statements legitimising these “agreements”, but has never come out to state its “official” position on them in detail. So, until they come out and tell us where they stand, I can only assume that UMD supports these two treasonous “agreements”.

As for people’s identities, I’m not asking anyone to reveal their real identity. I may have misinterpreted Bratot. I thought he was trying to say that I was spreading rumours that I did not have to account for. My point was that I am taking responsibility for everything I say on this forum because I am using my real identity.

[Bratot]

On July 31st, a UMD delegation met with Macedonia's President, Prime Minister and Foreign Minister in Skopje. UMD was able to reiterate its unwavering position against any negotiations over Macedonia's name, or any considerations of changing the name of the Republic of Macedonia.



“The most recent attempt to resolve the dispute proposed by UN mediator, Ambassador Matthew Nimetz, is being stymied by Athens because it does not advance Athens’ desire to extinguish Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness,” stated UMD President Metodija A. Koloski. “Rather than constructively participating in these negotiations, Athens merely waits for proposals from Ambassador Nimetz, rejects them out of hand, and then threatens Macedonia with a continued veto of Macedonia’s entry into NATO and now it has compounded that tactic with a threat to veto Macedonia’s EU membership,” added Koloski.


In closing, Koloski stated, “It is unfortunate that this dispute cannot be resolved, but Macedonia should not allow itself to be held hostage by the intransigence and threats of the Hellenic Republic over Macedonia’s admission into NATO and the EU. Moreover, given Athens’ conduct to date, it is reasonable to conclude that the Hellenic Republic will continue to impede Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, regardless of progress in the negotiations. This situation will continue unless and until Athens successfully extorts a new name of its own choosing not just for Macedonia but also for the Macedonian people and the Macedonian language. It is the position of UMD that none of these fall under the purview of or may be dictated by the Hellenic Republic. Rather, these are the sovereign property of the Macedonian people.”

[Pelister]

Bratot (That is what they are telling You), but UMD pride themselves on their cunning. You will never get a straight answer from them, believe me.

UMD's mission statement says one thing, while UMD's short historical record says something else entirely.

If you read the mission statement, and then read UMD's press release about why it supports a "suspension" of the negotiations, you will see the duplicity.

The ideology of UMD is post-modern, it believes that there is some kind of a "workable truth" when it comes to Macedonian culture, history and identity, and that "compromise of the truth = progress" which very closely mimmics the present Macedonian leadership.

Its mission statement calls for an "end" to the negotations, and yet UMD PUBLICLY called for a "suspension" FOR THE EXPLICIT REASON THAT Greece was not playing fair or being "serious" - this strongly suggests that UMD are all for a compromise, and the only factor standing in the way is Greece itself.

Like I said, UMD is prepared to accept a "political solution", but it won't defend Macedonian self determination or soveriegnty. I would be very, very suspicious of an organization SAYS ONE THING BUT STANDS FOR SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY.

Think about how many Macedonians died fighting for the Bulgarians, because they believed the Bulgarirans were defending them ?! Think about that, and don't look at UMD mission statement, look at their very public "Actions" regarding the negotiations and dispute.

[Pelister]

SoM/RTG (I hope you don’t mind me using acronyms to refer to you)

I haven’t come across an organisation that runs exactly as I think it should, though there are many that come very close Regardless, just because they may not exist, it does not mean that one shouldn’t strive to create them.

The organisations that I am currently involved have, in my view, much more important and fundamental priorities. They are focused on teaching Macedonians what most others in Europe learned nearly 2 centuries ago through the ‘enlightenment’ and the political ‘revolutions’ that followed – and that is that they are free men and women who are capable of determining their own status.

I am critical of many organisations and individuals who make statements or undertake activities which are, in my view, detrimental to the Macedonian cause – as I define it I’m far more critical of SDSM and DPMNE than UMD, which is relatively harmless in comparison.

As far as UMD’s mission statement goes, it’s a fairly vague one-pager. Most organisations that I am aware of, have detailed policy documents that have gone through serious internal debate and are used as a basis for the leaders/public spokespeople of those organisation to answer detailed questions in public.

For example, I believe that two fundamental issues facing Macedonia today, among others, are the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. UMD has made many public statements legitimising these “agreements”, but has never come out to state its “official” position on them in detail. So, until they come out and tell us where they stand, I can only assume that UMD supports these two treasonous “agreements”.

As for people’s identities, I’m not asking anyone to reveal their real identity. I may have misinterpreted Bratot. I thought he was trying to say that I was spreading rumours that I did not have to account for. My point was that I am taking responsibility for everything I say on this forum because I am using my real identity.

I would agree with that, entirely.