Financial Crisis in Greece

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  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    Europe’s deep structural flaws on full display

    Europe’s deep structural flaws on full display
    TIMOTHY GARTON ASH
    Special to The Globe and Mail
    Thursday, Jul. 09, 2015



    Timothy Garton Ash is professor of European studies at Oxford University, where he leads the freespeechdebate.com project, and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. His latest book is Facts are Subversive: Political Writing from a Decade Without a Name.

    Whom the gods will destroy they first make bored. We have seen so many “last chance” euro-zone summits about Greece that many Europeans have almost succumbed to narcolepsy. We doze in the passenger seat even as the car goes over the cliff. But this is it. If the EU heads of government don’t find a way forward at their emergency summit on Sunday, then on Monday a 70-year-old project of European integration may start to unravel. If you think it’s just the future of Greece that is at stake, think again.

    The trouble is that the euro zone’s recurrent failure to do anything but kick the can down the road is not merely the result of flawed policies and weak leadership. There have been plenty of those, on all sides, including the Greek government, the German government and European and international institutions. But the causes lie much deeper, in structural weaknesses of the European project that go back decades. Most of the politicians responsible for those weaknesses are dead or in their anecdotage. In many ways, today’s leaders are trapped in the dysfunctional logic of institutions that their predecessors created. It will take the most extraordinary leap of courage and imagination for them to go beyond it.

    If you ask who are the two people most responsible for the euro-zone crisis, of which Greece is just the most extreme manifestation, I would say former French president François Mitterrand and long-time Italian prime minister Giulio Andreotti. Those two old foxes were the key players who, immediately after the fall of the Berlin Wall, pinned the West German chancellor Helmut Kohl down to a timetable for European monetary union in return for their own grudging support for German unification – but then would not accept the fiscal union needed to make it work. “Recent history, not only in Germany,” said the historically informed statesman Mr. Kohl, “teaches us that it is absurd to expect in the long run that you can maintain economic and monetary union without political union.” How right he was.

    This was only one of several original sins of the euro zone. While France and Italy demanded the commitment, Germany wrote most of the rules – and they were German rules, obsessed by countering inflation and crafted for the macroeconomic circumstances of a different time. Because this was above all a political project, and France and Italy had by definition to be in from the outset, there was a kind of reverse domino effect. If Italy had to be in, then surely Spain; if Spain, then surely Portugal; and so all the way to Greece, a profoundly unmodernized state, which should never have entered a monetary union that should itself not have been allowed to proceed – even within a smaller group of more compatible economies – until the original design flaws had been addressed.

    Now old king Kohl hoped that, as so many times before in post-1945 Europe, this economic integration would eventually catalyze the necessary political one. But so far it has not happened that way. As personal memories of war, occupation and dictatorship have faded, national publics across the continent – not least in Germany itself – have become more pragmatic, skeptical or downright disillusioned about the European project.

    The solution proposed for the EU’s so-called democratic deficit, namely to give more power to a directly elected European Parliament, and then to have the top candidate for European commission president nominated by the main party groupings in that Parliament, simply has not done the trick. Many times over recent months I have asked audiences consisting mainly of people who did actually vote in elections to the European Parliament whether they had consciously been voting for one of the Spitzenkandidaten. Hardly anybody says yes. Theory is one thing, practice another. So whatever you think of Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’s behaviour, it is nonsense to pretend that Jean-Claude Juncker somehow enjoys a broader European democratic legitimacy in confronting him.

    The reality of European democracy remains national, and behind that truth is an even deeper fact: There is hardly any more of a European public sphere today than there was when I first started studying and travelling in Europe 40 years ago. There is a thin layer of publications, now online as well as in print, which reach a small, educated audience across the continent, but most people in Europe still get most of their news and views from national media. This is true even when there is a shared language. In Vienna recently, I was told how much the Austrian coverage of Greece differs in tone from that in Germany.

    So there is not just one Greece, but 28 different ones, according to the country you are in. The Estonian and Latvian “Greece” would barely be recognizable to Italians, let alone to Greeks. Equally, there is not just one Germany but 28 – and few Germans would recognize their own country in the Greek newspapers’ “Germany.” These drastically contrasting narratives are fed by national politicians, who emerge from every Brussels summit to trumpet their own successes and blame any concessions on other governments and nasty European institutions. The Belgian foreign minister rather amusingly says that he is the only one who can’t blame it on “Brussels” (because that is also the seat of his own government).

    “Among a people without fellow-feeling, especially if they read and speak different languages,” wrote John Stuart Mill, “the united public opinion, necessary to the working of representative government, cannot exist.” Europe has yet to prove him wrong. I have been in six European countries over the last six weeks, and the lack of fellow-feeling between them has been painful to observe.

    There’s a cliché about “democracy versus technocracy.” Unfortunately, the truth is even worse, for in the euro zone we have the worst of both worlds. Institutions such as the European Commission and the IMF do have some of the flaws (as well as the virtues) of technocracy, including a tendency to stick to unrealistic, one-size-fits-all economic orthodoxies. But when it comes to European leaders, then it is a case of democracy versus democracy. Immediately after last Sunday’s “no” vote in Greece, Mr. Tsipras celebrated “the victory of democracy” – Thermopylae replayed as agitprop. Yet, though German Chancellor Angela Merkel may not be directly descended from Pericles, she is every bit as much a democratic leader as Mr. Tsipras, and equally subject to the constraints of national interest and (often more important) national emotions.

    So the 28 national leaders who gather in Brussels on Sunday, together with the heads of European institutions, will not merely have to leap over their own shadows. They will have to surmount giant structural obstacles that their predecessors created, at once going beyond the orthodoxies of technocracy and somehow negotiating a way to reconcile the legitimate imperatives of 28 different national democracies. If they fail, not just Greece but the whole European project will be plunged into still deeper crisis. Will that existential crisis then finally be seized as kairos, the opportunity for decisive action? As a European, I hope it; as an analyst, I doubt it.
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      Juncker: EU will not keep Greece in the euro at all costs

      Juncker: EU will not keep Greece in the euro at all costs
      By Mehreen Khan
      09 Sep 2015

      European Commission president urges new Greek government to stick to its bail-out terms as 'the bell tolls' for crisis-hit continent


      European Commission president urges new Greek government to stick to its bail-out terms as 'the bell tolls' for crisis-hit continent

      Jean Claude-Juncker has warned that Greece's third government in four years will have no flexibility over its new €86bn bail-out plan and could still face the prospect of a disorderly exit from the eurozone.

      Addressing parliamentarians in his annual "State of the Union" speech in Strasbourg, Mr Juncker defended his personal role during seven months of crisis talks with Athens but said any new government would have to fully abide by the punishing conditions laid out by its creditors.

      "It was important that [the Greeks] understood that they would not be saved at any cost," he said of the third bail-out agreement, reached in July.

      "I want the programme to be respected by all future Greek governments. We are serious and for real. We need respect for arrangements that have been reached."

      Greece faces its second general election in just nine months on September 20 after prime minister Alexis Tsipras capitulated to the country's lenders and lost majority backing from his Syriza party.

      The latest polls suggest there will be no clear winner after the incumbent Leftists lost a 15-point lead to centre-right opposition party, New Democracy in just six weeks.

      In a 90-minute address, which was peppered by heckles from Ukip's Nigel Farage and was halted after an Italian MEP was ordered to remove a face mask of Angela Merkel, Mr Juncker said Europe could not continue in its "business as usual" fashion in the face of a refugee crisis and a stagnant economy.

      "We have got to be frank: the bell tolls. Our European Union it is not in a good situation. There is a lack of Europe in the European Union, and lack of union in the EU."

      The former Luxembourg president said he was "perturbed" by the prospect of Greece leaving the single currency but defended the final deal to raise taxes, overhaul the economy, and privatise €50bn of national assets, as socially fair.

      He also justified his personal intervention in Greece's crisis talks, hitting back at criticism that the Commission had become too politicised under his reign.

      "I was not a magician, I did not have a magic wand, and cannot pull rabbit out of a hat," said an impassioned Mr Juncker.

      "It is not a technical question whether you increase VAT not only on restaurants, but also on processed food. It is a political and social question."

      More Europe for EMU

      Mr Juncker's Commission has spearheaded plans to deepen economic and monetary union and will push ahead with plans to create a common eurozone treasury. The move has been supported by France as the first step towards a full-blown fiscal union.

      The treasury would be based on the European Stability Mechanism, which currently acts as the bloc's joint rescue fund and is being deployed to bail-out Greece for the third time in five years.

      However, Brussels will not yet move towards pooling member-state debts - a quantum leap towards an "EU superstate" that has been repeatedly rejected by Germany, said Mr Juncker.

      "I no longer want our recommendations for the economic orientation of the euro area as a whole to be empty words. I want them to provide real orientation, notably on the fiscal stance of the euro area".

      "It is essential that @Europarl_EN has a stronger role in Economic & Monetary Union" @JunckerEU #SOTEU #deepeningEMU pic.twitter.com/G8R9GKPwlM
      — European Commission (@EU_Commission) September 9, 2015
      Follow the Telegraph on LinkedIn. Share this article with your network.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • DedoAleko
        Member
        • Jun 2009
        • 969

        N. Kotzias: Imaginary Professor at Oxford University, Harvard, Marburg…



        We have forwarded the following communiqué to the President of the European Council Mr. Donald Tusk, the President of the European Commission Mr. Jean-Claude Juncker, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Ms. Federica Mogherini, the Secretary of State of the US Mr. John Kerry and the 27 Ministers of Foreign Affairs of the member-states of the EU. We attached the responses from the University of Oxford, Harvard University and the University of Marburg. They refute the claim made by the Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs, that he supposedly has been a Professor at all of these universities. The communiqué was mailed on November 9th, the anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall.

        ***

        Honorable Minister,

        I am editor of the periodical publication The Athens Review of Books and I am writing this letter because I would like to bring to your attention that the current Greek Foreign Minister Mr N. Kotzias is an imaginary Professor at three renowned universities. In particular N. Kotzias claims that

        «(…) I was elected Associate Professor in that University [of Marburg]. (…) Among other things, in the summer of 2001, due to the position of Professor I held at Oxford University in the UK before my appointment at Harvard University in the US (…)»

        The Athens Review of Books decided to investigate Mr Kotzias’ claims which appear in official documents by contacting the universities of Oxford, Harvard and Marburg. The replies we received confirmed that Mr Kotzias has never been Professor at Oxford and Harvard universities, and has never been elected Associate Professor in Marburg (the title of Associate Professor [C3-Professor] does not even exist in German universities).

        I am attaching these replies to my letter as evidence to the truth of my assertions. Mr Kotzias shows great talent and ease in manufacturing lies, in fact this is his area of expertise as head of propaganda of the Stalinist Communist Party of Greece.

        Yours faithfully,



        Maria Vasilaki
        Publisher of the Athens Review of Books

        izvor: http://athensreviewofbooks.com/?p=1944

        Comment

        • Philosopher
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1003

          Greek economic woes are becoming even worse, a new study suggests, as young Greek women are selling sex for the price of a sandwich.

          Young Greek women are selling sex for the price of a sandwich as six years of painful austerity have pushed the European country to the financial brink, a new study showed Friday.

          The study, which compiled data on more than 17,000 sex workers operating in Greece, found that Greek women now dominate the country’s prostitution industry, replacing Eastern European women, and that the sex on sale in Greece is some of the cheapest on offer in Europe.
          Apparently, the nebulous and ill-defined Eastern European women are no longer the dominant group, having been replaced by another crypto Eastern European women known as Greeks.

          “Some women just do it for a cheese pie, or a sandwich they need to eat because they are hungry,” Gregory Laxos, a sociology professor at the Panteion University in Athens, told the London Times newspaper. “Others [do it] to pay taxes, bills, for urgent expenses or a quick [drug] fix,” said Laxos, who conducted the three-year study.

          When the economic crisis began in Greece, the going rate for sex with a prostitute was 50 euros ($53), the London newspaper quoted Laxos as saying. Now, it’s fallen to as low as two euros ($2.12) for a 30-minute session.


          A terrible tragedy in a Orthodox country.

          I fear it is only going to become worse in the Balkans.

          Comment

          • Amphipolis
            Banned
            • Aug 2014
            • 1328

            This story has caused huge laughter in Greece and the “sandwich thing” is the latest joke. (Un)fortunately, this isn't true; and Prof. Lazos denied today he has written something like that.

            As far as I have heard the lowest prices (in Athens) can drop to 5Euros/fuck for illegal African streetwalkers (for a similar cast of clients). All street walkers are illegal and their price could start from around 30-50E/fuck, these are also the lowest (not the average) prices in legal or illegal brothels or studios. It’s hard to find Greek girls in these categories (probably less than 10%).

            Greek girls are usually (also illegal) call girls with prices that would start from 100-150E/visit. One does not have to go to the jungle to find these numbers as there are forums in Greece discussing and rating prostitutes (just as IMDB discusses and rates movies).


            ===

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              With so many diseases going around how cheap can it get?People are forced to do crazy things for sex,The govt should stamp out as it will spread disiases.
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • Amphipolis
                Banned
                • Aug 2014
                • 1328

                Originally posted by George S. View Post
                With so many diseases going around how cheap can it get?People are forced to do crazy things for sex,The govt should stamp out as it will spread disiases.
                Two years ago, there was a scandal (that's the European mentality) because the pictures of HIV-positive prostitutes were given to publicity by police. In Greece and Europe, unlike USA, photos of criminals are never publicized; it is considered inhuman and unnecessary. In this case it was to alarm their previous and future customers. Look at these 11 pictures (9 Greeks, one Polish, one Bulgarian).

                The men who paid for sex with these women were really... brave and I don't refer to AIDS. Well, No 4 looks fine. Also, maybe it was dark. This is a specific category of prostitutes that are drug-addicts.

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  The mentality of those that take a risk and they get the aids.Would you beleive that the pope is in afrika and he still hasnt approved the use of condoms that will stem the aids epidemic.I ts plain common sense.
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15660

                    Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                    A terrible tragedy in a Orthodox country.
                    Is it a tragedy because of the price they are charging?
                    Perhaps you know an Orthodox country that doesn't have prostitution.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      Prostitution is supposed to be the oldest profession.Not that I go to it but others say that it is cheap with the economic situation of high unemployment.
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • Stojacanec
                        Member
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 809

                        Better than being screwed by the greek cabbies.

                        Comment

                        • Dejan
                          Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 591

                          On a semi serious note, I'm thinking the English word 'prostitute' may have it's roots in the Macedonian language.

                          Прости - Forgive

                          Luke 7:44-50

                          44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; You gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?” 50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

                          What say you?
                          You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

                          A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13675

                            Originally posted by Dejan View Post
                            On a semi serious note, I'm thinking the English word 'prostitute' may have it's roots in the Macedonian language.
                            It derives from Latin, rough meaning is to be 'offered'.

                            Back to the financial crisis in Greece, here is what's currently happening.

                            PHP Code:
                            http://www.ekathimerini.com/216248/article/ekathimerini/business/greece-says-not-a-euro-more-in-cuts-as-eu-officials-call-for-speedy-deal 
                            Greece says 'not a euro more' in cuts as EU officials call for speedy deal

                            16.02.2017

                            European Union officials urged Greece and its lenders on Thursday to conclude a long-overdue bailout review quickly to safeguard economic recovery but Athens said it wouldn't ask "a euro more" from its austerity-wracked citizens. Inconclusive talks between Greece and its international creditors on economic reforms and debt relief are in danger of retriggering the crisis that almost ended in Greece being pushed out of the euro zone two years ago. Failure to agree on various aspects of what must be done has cast doubt over the future of Greece's 86 billion euro (73 billion pound) bailout programme, with new aid withheld while the stalemate persists. On Thursday, EU officials were urging speed to avoid catastrophe and one German politician close to Chancellor Angela Merkel hinted that one bone of contention - the participation of the International Monetary Fund - may be got around. But Greece remained firm that is would not imposed more austerity than already agreed on is population, which has been living with deep recession, deflation and a roughly one-in-four jobless rate. European Commissioner for Economic and Financial Affairs Pierre Moscovici, who had visited Athens on Wednesday, said he was "hopeful" for a political agreement before a meeting of euro zone finance ministers next Monday. "An agreement on the way forward for the Greek program is absolutely necessary .... With (a) little effort from all stakeholders, (it) seems to me doable," Moscovici told reporters in Vienna.

                            But with just four days to go there was little public sign of compromise. "The Greek government is negotiating with responsibility and resolve ... but all of that must, however, be without any additional burden, and without additional costs for Greek society," Greek government spokesman Dimitris Tzanakopoulos told a news briefing. "Our aim continues to be an agreement with not even a euro more of additional measures." The Greek government has resisted the imposition of more austerity by the lenders, particularly on groups such as pensioners who have already seen 11 cuts to their income. In Brussels, the European Commission's vice president responsible for the euro, Valdis Dombrovskis, said there are costs in delaying agreement on Greece's bailout review, and a solution needs to be found swiftly. "There is a common understanding that time lost in reaching an agreement will have a cost for everyone," Dombrovskis told Greek news portal Euro2day. Dombrovskis said the situation in Greece could not be compared with to the situation in early 2015 when the country narrowly avoided default and toppling out of the euro zone. Greece has about 7.5 billion euros of debt falling due by July, which it is unable to pay without more loans from lenders.

                            So far it has received some 31.7 billion from the latest bailout accord, its third since 2010. Disagreements over labour and energy market reforms lenders want Greece to adopt have been complicated by broader misgivings from the IMF, which will not participate in the most recent bailout because of concerns Athens will never be able to extricate itself from debt. European policymakers have said that the bailout programme cannot continue without IMF input, although a Manfred Weber, a German who heads the conservative bloc in the European Parliament, said on Thursday IMF participation is no longer crucial. The fundamentals of the Greek economy have been strengthened, Dombrovskis said, but that strong growth potential was contingent on reforms being implemented. "So policy makers are faced with this choice – work hard to reach an agreement that will build on progress made or slip back into uncertainty. I think the choice is obvious," he said. Recent Greek economic data has shown how tenuous the recovery is, with inflation rising and economic growth contracting again.

                            Creditors fight creditors over the bail-out of Greece

                            Feb 16th 2017

                            SISYPHUS was condemned to push a boulder uphill only to watch it roll down again. Yet an eternity of boulder-shoving seems purposeful next to the unending labour of keeping Greece in the euro zone and out of default. It is nearly seven years since the first Greek bail-out. A second rescue package soon followed. In 2015 Greece came close to dropping out of the euro before its newish prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, buckled down to the task of pruning the budget as part of a third bail-out. Now a Greek disaster is looming all over again. This time the source of the trouble is a row among the two main creditors over how to assess Greece’s public debt (see article). The stand-off threatens a payment to Greece from the euro zone’s bail-out fund, the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), which would redeem €6.3bn ($6.7bn) of bonds that are due in July. If the money is withheld, Greece will be in default. Sooner or later, Grexit would be hard to avoid.

                            Hopes of an agreement before a meeting of euro-zone finance ministers on February 20th have evaporated. A deal is in everyone’s interest, and the Greek crisis has a history of last-minute fixes. Sadly, there are reasons to fear that brinkmanship and politics will get in the way. Before this new impasse, Greece’s economy was improving. Deposits had trickled back to the banks, letting the European Central Bank (ECB) cut its emergency lending. GDP has risen fitfully after years of persistent decline. Unemployment is still woefully high, at 23%, but is down from a peak of 28%. And Greece comfortably surpassed a crucial target by recording a primary budget surplus (which excludes debt-interest costs) above 0.5% of GDP in 2016. Still, the economy is too weak to withstand a fresh bout of austerity. Almost half of bank loans are non-performing. Investment is feeble. Credit to small firms, the backbone of the economy, is scarce. Business rules and tax codes are unfriendly and changeable. In addition, Greece’s primary surplus is the result of policies that are inefficient and unfair. Marginal tax rates have been increased while exemptions proliferate, a recipe for Greeks to exercise their mastery of tax avoidance. More than half of wage earners in Greece are still exempt from income tax. Essential spending has been cut even as pensions remain generous. A newly retired Greek receives 81% of average wages, compared with 43% for a German.

                            Against this backdrop, a row between Greece’s creditors has been brewing. At issue is the IMF’s role in the bail-out. Germany and the Netherlands do not trust the European Commission to police Greece, and have made the fund’s involvement a condition of their support. The fund is reluctant. Its officials reckon that the programme’s target of a sustained 3.5% primary budget surplus might push the Greek economy into recession. They would prefer to delay further austerity and to insist on more tenable fiscal measures that would do less harm. Europe thinks the IMF is too gloomy about Greece’s prospects. These are not the only sticking-points. By the IMF’s own rules, it cannot take part unless it believes that the bail-out will leave a debt burden that is “sustainable”—one that is steadily falling and easily financed. For the Greek bail-out to pass muster would require a commitment to debt relief from the euro-zone partners. But an explicit pledge to let Greece off its debts would be politically poisonous, because it might increase support for anti-EU parties ahead of elections in the Netherlands, France and Germany. Instead Klaus Regling, the ESM’s boss, argues that the euro zone’s evident “solidarity” with Greece (the ESM holds two-thirds of its debt, much of it at long maturities and low rates) is enough to make the sums add up.

                            This is a farce. Most of the bonds due for redemption in July belong to the ECB. In essence, therefore, Greece’s creditors are arguing among themselves over whether to agree on a payment from one euro-zone institution to another. The shape of a compromise is plain. Greece will have to pass legislation that commits the government to reducing pensions and income-tax allowances after 2018. European creditors will need to pledge to finance Greece’s debts at today’s low interest rates. And the IMF will have to stomach a higher fiscal-surplus target for Greece than it would like. Yet everything could still go wrong. Mr Tsipras seems to think he can wait for the IMF, egged on by America under Donald Trump, to abandon its stewardship of the bail-out. The resulting uncertainty will set back Greece’s fragile economy. Growing political turmoil in Germany and France could also make a deal harder to reach. A long stand-off risks seeing Greece roll down to the bottom again. Nobody would benefit.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Gocka
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 2306

                              It was obvious from the beginning of this debacle that by trying to "save" the Greek economy, that Europe would crush Greece under the weight of these loans.

                              To put this whole thing in simple terms, Greece had too much debt that it couldn't afford the payments on, so to help Greece Europe lent them money to pay off the original debt. They didn't just give Greece the money, they lent them the money. So all they did is exchange the original debt for new debt except the new debt is larger than the original.

                              The original debts were held be private banks throughout Europe, so the logic was to shield private banks from huge losses should Greece go bankrupt. So they lent Greece money to pay those debts, now the debt is held by European nations, or basically European tax payers. Then they claimed that by forcing Greece to be fiscally responsible they would eventually get their money back. Problem is by forcing them to be responsible they crushed the Greek economy, meaning Greece collects less money, meaning they still cant pay the debt which is constantly growing.

                              Here is the part that is just down right confusing, who were the geniuses in the EU who thought that this whole thing would work? The theory here is so blatantly flawed you have to ask if the EU ever really intended for Greece to actually get out of this mess, or is something else going altogether. These policy makers are supposed to be "experts", were they really so naive to think that they could lend their way out of a debt crisis?

                              What I believe is that the EU wanted to shield their banks from losses, because lets face it, big banks have a lot of pull everywhere int he world. They accomplished that, but they passed the buck on to their taxpayers instead, which is absurd. So because some German bank made a bad investment in Greece, a German citizen now needs to cough up his or her hard earned money to pay for the debts that Greece will default on eventually. The bank who made the bad investment still gets to take their profits. Its a direct transfer from tax payers to the banks. Obviously this looks bad and no politician wants to be at fault for doing that. So they put on this big show, playing hardball with Greece, to show their taxpayers that they are desperately trying to make this work, knowing full well that Greece will collapse as soon as they turn off the taps. I think the EU is just trying to push that collapse as far into the future as they can, first so that it give EU citizens time to forget how this all came to be in the first place, and secondly to give the EU economy time to strengthen.

                              As soon as they think the political fallout will be acceptable, and the EU economy is strong enough to take the shock, they will withdraw and let Greece collapse, knowing they will not get their money back. This can only end with Greece going into bankruptcy, their is no alternative. Had Greece ripped the band aid off from day one, they would have been worse off at first, but by now they would have bee working toward a recovery. All they did is take partial pain all these years and make the problem worse, thus the collapse will be deeper than it could have been.

                              What I want to know is what does that mean for Macedonia if they can get their shit together. Once Greece goes bankrupt and leaves the euro currency, they will be very weak and out of favor. Will Macedonia push to get into the EU, end the name negotiations? That's if Macedonia doesn't collapse before Greece goes bankrupt.

                              Comment

                              • Amphipolis
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 1328

                                Actually, the new alleged compromise (according to Deutsche Welle) is hugely ridiculous, politically (EU) and technically-scientifically (IMF). These politicians have no problem seeing a white wall when it’s black and signing anything in order to simply not deal with problems but just push them to the future for the next guys.

                                You can't blame people for choosing Trump, Le Pen or Brexit. As a foreign newspaper wrote, these governments deserve to be defeated more than anyone else before them.

                                Last edited by Amphipolis; 02-17-2017, 02:19 PM.

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