International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Volk]

What a scaremongering fool! We will lose funding that we don't even receive from two organisations that we're not even members of, ethnic tensions will "rise" (as if they arn't at conflict level already) and his beloved DPMNE will "fall".

Are you now claiming Macedonia does not receive any EU money? What a stupid, ill informed statement. This idiotic statement only proves that you have actually NO idea about what is happening in Macedonia.

According to Angelovski:

- Macedonia does not need the millions of EU funds (58.8 million EUROS in 2007)
- There will be ZERO internal and external consequences for simultaneously withdrawing from the 'frame work agreement' and 'name talks' AND Macedonia should not have any strategies to deal with any after effects, because they simply do not exits.
- Planning for any fallout is 'scare mongering'



SOM,

Quote:
by closing the door on EU and NATO membership (which the majority of all citizens want):
Most Macedonians in Macedonia are in favour of this, but not if it means changing the name to gain entry. Isn't that still the case? The government is well aware that entry to these organisations almost certainly spells another name-change, and they have done absolutely nothing in terms of seeking contingencies.

Agreed, but which contingencies are available? There are none in the short term, a longer outlook would suggest China - India - Russia.

- no more EU funding
What funding are we receiving at the moment, and how dependent are we on these funds?

According to this report http://www.analyticamk.org/files/ReportNo34.pdf 58 million Euros where allocated to Macedonia in 2007.

Not a small amount for us. If we can afford to lose that kind of funding I could not say, only the ministry of Finance could.

That is inevitable with the extremists among the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia, whether now or 10 years from now. The moderate ethnic Albanians in Macedonia that respect the country in which they live should be integrated into the wider Macedonian society, and be given all the support to meet that end. They will either be with extremists, or with Macedonia, the choice is theirs in the end, but the current state of affairs and circumstances need to change so they can resemble a normal country once again. I truly hope that the moderate ethnic Albanians in Macedonia join the Turks, Roma, Vlachs and others in helping the Macedonians build Macedonia together. If their intention is to build something other than that, then they are in the wrong country. Sooner or later, this needs to be made plain and clear to them by a Macedonian government.

Are we not prepared to address them with proportional force should they(extremists) try to destabilise the country? If not, when do you think we will be prepared? Perhaps when we declare the FA void, and therefore rid ourselves of the requirement in which we are forced to have 25% ethnic Albanians in the army? How else would you suggest that this predicament changes, if not by discarding the FA? How else will we ever be prepared to defend the interests of our state?

This seems to be a regional issue, one which Macedonia is not immune to. Albanian extremism comes from Kosovo and was imported here. Without going at the source, how can we control it here?

A simple census may be the cure from the FA. It terms of when we will be prepared, the answer is when we plan for it, which is not happening.

The army is now rotting because of that 25%, As far as I understand the special forces in both army and police do not have this quota and as such most if not all of the allocated money is going there.

If Macedonia is prapared to military confront the rebellious albanians
it needs a military industry. Macedonia is surrounded by NATO members and an embargo like last time would mean zero military capabilities very quickly.

Either way we are seeing a federalization taking place that stems from the FA.

Macedonians are a dying people in our own country. The birthrate I think is negative, whilst the albanians is well known. This must be changed if we are going to survive in our country.

Who will embargo Macedonia? Who will stop their supply of electricity and other necessities?

NATO. Until we are self sufficient in energy and weapons we can be pressured very easily.

I think we can both agree that we need to be militarily prepared to protect our interests. What else?

Economically (as much as possible- self sufficiency) and we need energy. The most important is the Macedonian mentality to protect their state which I believe can be induced by the right leadership.

[Vangelovski]

Volk you pathetic attempt to prop up Gligorovist propaganda - WHY do you think that EU funding (which is relatively miniscule) will be withdrawn if Macedonia declares the Interim Accord null and void? HOW much of that funding do you think is absorbed by corrupt vassal politicians? WHAT do you think the funding that does make it to the public treasury is actually used for? And WHY do you think that funding is more valuable than our national sovereignty?

The fact that the vast majority of EU funding is used to prop up and implement the Framework Agreement should be enough to persuade any sensible observer that this funding is actually creating a negative impact for Macedonia and yet vassal apologists like Volk (aka RAT) are baselessly suggesting that Macedonia needs this funding!

[Pelister]

Anyone who believes that the 'negotiations' are part of a strategy to save us, are misguided and delusional and sound very much like the Metovisti that come and go here.

There could be nothing more damaging to our identity, our history and our culture - let alone our political existence, than the 'negotiation' process.

Actually, we have not been blocked from the United Nations. We never were, and this continues to be the case today, so why engage a process that could lead us to political destruction? The same reason Meto thought whats going on now is great for us - people can advance their careers on it.

We are not standing up for our rights, we are not acknowledging historical truth and we are certainly not rejecting the 'Greek' position - why even engage something as irrational, aggressive as the Greek position. It is all about exterminating the Macedonians, and the current processes, is how they will do it.

Gruevski has been working for the Greeks from the very beginning and I would have once said, he probably doesn't even realise it. Now I am certain he is, if people consider that we have not been formally blocked from the United Nations.

[Vangelovski]

The army is now rotting because of that 25%, As far as I understand the special forces in both army and police do not have this quota and as such most if not all of the allocated money is going there.

All areas of the military and police have this quota. The fact that you did not know this shows you have not read the FA and related material. HOW do you think the situation will improve by continuing to implement the FA?

If Macedonia is prapared to military confront the rebellious albanians it needs a military industry. Macedonia is surrounded by NATO members and an embargo like last time would mean zero military capabilities very quickly...

...NATO. Until we are self sufficient in energy and weapons we can be pressured very easily.

What rubbish - this is part of the wait until we are ready crap. What embargo? You mean the Americans stopping Ukranian supplies? From the dozens of officials I have personally spoken to for my research (including figures such as Stojance Angelov) military hardware was not an issue and Macedonian forces had a massive oversupply - the issue was our vassal politicians stopping the military from carrying out its duties.

[fyrOM]

Don't worry too much - I'm going to be taking a bit of a back-seat for a while. I can see you have preset ideas about what would happen if the IA and FA were made void overnight - ie nothing will happen and it will be business as usual. You dismiss out of hand all other suggestions as nonsensical, and maybe to you they are. For now we will have to agree to disagree on these 2 issues and wait for developments to happen and maybe revisit this discussion then when we may have something more concrete to talk about.

[Risto the Great]

Even more disappointing has been Meto Koloski's support of these instruments, these processes which have as railroaded on a fast track to no where.

I wouldn't say that is even more disappointing. I will say that the Diaspora supporting anything resembling such negotiations in any manner whatsoever is disgusting.

[Phoenix]

Lets revisit this thread in a year or 2s time to compare what was said now and what happened in that time.

Let's hear your ideas of the likely outcome, so that in 2 years time when we revisit this topic we're under no illusions as to where you stood on the matter...I'm guessing you're a sort of 'chop and change' kind of guy and I can imagine you squirming out of your hole based on nothing more than the old hindsight argument...let's see your foresight instead.

[UMDiaspora.org]

Passing along information so you all can watch the public hearings does not imply support. The thread was posted for fair use only.

UMD has called on the Macedonian government to cease all UN talks and to submit change to Resolution 817 to be voted by the General Assembly to allow Macedonia into the UN under its rightful and constitutional name. UMD reiterated that call several times in the last few weeks, including in a most recent interview of UMD President Metodija A. Koloski for Taratur: http://www.taratur.com/node/21592

[Vangelovski]

Don't worry too much - I'm going to be taking a bit of a back-seat for a while. I can see you have preset ideas about what would happen if the IA and FA were made void overnight - ie nothing will happen and it will be business as usual. You dismiss out of hand all other suggestions as nonsensical, and maybe to you they are. For now we will have to agree to disagree on these 2 issues and wait for developments to happen and maybe revisit this discussion then when we may have something more concrete to talk about.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that that this would be easy. In fact, I think most of us have made it quite clear that it will be a difficult struggle (at least in relation to the Framework Agreement. I Interim Accord is in fact an easy win). If you have evidence to the contrary, please quote it.

What fyrOM and Volk are attempting to do, however, is invent idiotic Armageddon-style scenario's with a view to scaring the average Macedonian that is less informed of the key issues and the situation on the ground, with the goal of maintaining the status quo.

[Vangelovski]

Passing along information so you all can watch the public hearings does not imply support. The thread was posted for fair use only.

UMD has called on the Macedonian government to cease all UN talks and to submit change to Resolution 817 to be voted by the General Assembly to allow Macedonia into the UN under its rightful and constitutional name. UMD reiterated that call several times in the last few weeks, including in a most recent interview of UMD President Metodija A. Koloski for Taratur: http://www.taratur.com/node/21592

Meto, the negotiations are only part of the Interim Accord and I don't think anyone is convinced of this supposed about-face. Why is it that UMD still supports the Interim Accord (even if that does not include the negotiations themselves)?

[Vangelovski]

Let's hear your ideas of the likely outcome, so that in 2 years time when we revisit this topic we're under no illusions as to where you stood on the matter...I'm guessing you're a sort of 'chop and change' kind of guy and I can imagine you squirming out of your hole based on nothing more than the old hindsight argument...let's see your foresight instead.

From what I can make out of his incoherent ramblings, the ICJ case is a key play in the "grand chess game" played out by those "geniuses" who will make Macedonia rich by selling ajvar to the Slovenians.

[fyrOM]

Let's hear your ideas of the likely outcome, so that in 2 years time when we revisit this topic we're under no illusions as to where you stood on the matter...I'm guessing you're a sort of 'chop and change' kind of guy and I can imagine you squirming out of your hole based on nothing more than the old hindsight argument...let's see your foresight instead.

I have already said a lot in past posts in various threads so it on record. Repeating everything now is just a waste of time.

I'm not disappearing, just your (collective) refusal to discus things further without more concrete matter at hand makes it not worthwhile - not that there isn't anything to discuss but you flat refusal makes it not possible.

It will be my pleasure to say 'I told you so' then.

[fyrOM]

Does any one know when the next broadcast will be?

[Soldier of Macedon]

It will be my pleasure to say 'I told you so' then.

Get real, people like yourself were saying the same thing when Gligorov initially changed the name and said 'wait, 3 months and it will all be better', or something along those stupid and naive lines. 20 years later and we still have people like you among us, pathetic weaklings that accept the status quo and embolden our detractors with their submissive stupidity.

Perhaps you will realise the truth when you finally slither out from under that rock you're always hiding under. Or, perhaps you will speak openly about your treacherous sentiments to other Macedonians in person. Neither seems likely for obvious reasons, so most probable is you, your bong, and your PC in some basement. Status quo.

[fyrOM]

Get real, people like yourself were saying the same thing when Gligorov initially changed the name and said 'wait, 3 months and it will all be better', or something along those stupid and naive lines. 20 years later...
...most probable is you, your bong, and your PC in some basement. Status quo.

If you have been following any of my posts you would know 20 years ago my attitude was,"I'm sure they'll sort it out," and not much more.

Being in Australia, you would be aware very few houses have basements or attic rooms. In summer I like to be on my balcony (in plain view for that matter) whilst in colder times I have my favorite couch beside a window so stop with the American cliches - you sound like you watch too much TV.

No Bongs or bottles of booze were hurt in the making of this post.