International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Phoenix]

We need to look at the underlying reasons as to why they are negotiating. They're negotiating because they are vassals and as such they hope they will gain personally by doing something they think their vassal masters want them to do.

The ICJ case diverts from their personal career interests, but is nothing more than a brain fart at best and a cheap stunt to gain DPMNE some "patriotic credibility" at worst. Pulling out of the negotiations for these vassal politicians would be 'career suicide'. Many of these idiots think the "west" actually cares whether they negotiate or not and that by negotiating they think they may be given plush EU/NATO careers and be accepted by their "peers" (read political masters).

Yeah...I can't argue with what you're saying...Just wishful thinking from me...

[GStojanov]

First of all, let me say that I don't think that Macedonia should and will change the name. The public opinion shifted away from that possibility. Not even one single letter before or after the name. There is no need for that, and there is no justification for that at all.

I do agree that this agreement is detrimental for Macedonia, and I do think that ultimately it will be abandoned by us (Greeks won’t do that, since it benefits them more than it costs them).

I also think that the name issue will be solved by Macedonia asking UN to reevaluate its decision to impose provisional references on us. And we will win that case.

But to get there, we first need to get rid of the obligation accepted by our previous governments. That obligation was imposed on us. We can (and should) blame our previous governments, but that won’t help us much.

If Greece gets convicted, Greece will refuse to fulfill the judgment. They are too stubborn to go through a humiliation of writing to all NATO members that they are changing their mind about opposing Macedonian membership to NATO. That will give us a perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement.

If Greece does not get convicted, we will get another perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement. The only protective clause of that Agreement becomes legally unenforceable, so we can nullify the Agreement. We have right to do so, we only need to wait 11 months after we announce it.

The third possibility (the least plausible) is: Greece gets convicted and Greece decides to comply. That will continue the process of negotiation, but that would also strengthen our international position, and we will continue EU and NATO integration. That will merely postpone the resolution of the name issue, until we feel strong enough and on equal footing with Greece, so we can freely assert our rights.

[Soldier of Macedon]

We can (and should) blame our previous governments, but that won’t help us much.

And you don't think the recent governments (including the current one) bear any guilt for being in their positions so long and not doing a damn thing about correcting the situation aside from 'negotiating a mutually acceptable solution with Greece'? They have perpetuated the stupidity of previous governments, which makes them just as bad.

If Greece gets convicted, Greece will refuse to fulfill the judgment. They are too stubborn to go through a humiliation of writing to all NATO members that they are changing their mind about opposing Macedonian membership to NATO. That will give us a perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement.

If Greece does not get convicted, we will get another perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement.

Since when has Macedonia ever needed a legal avenue so that Macedonians may express their natural human rights? On the one hand, some of you call for the government to cease negotiations immediately, yet on the other you're optimistic of the outcome of this ridiculous ICJ case.

GStojanov, do you think it is wise for Macedonia to be taking Greece to trial for not calling us fyrom in international organisations? Do you too believe in some 'grand plan' that the government in Macedonia is 'bound' to unravel?

[Daskalot]

The ICJ is a waste of time for a useless name.
The Macedonian people are being fooled by the government into seeing this as a victory. When it is FYROM all the way. What a joke.

[Volk]

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;93870]
Of course Macedonia needs to be prepared for any consequence of proposed actions. But surely 1 - 20 years is enough to suggest that there is no useful agenda nor "preparation" and that the direction is backwards not forwards for Macedonia.
QUOTE]

Not only is there no direction, there is no national stratgey exept for joining the EU and NATO, the clubs that will not recognize our name and the EU will not recognize our nation.

Volk, seriously, you reject the FA & IA. Your particular axe to grind somehow relates to the timing of the rejections and the preparations related thereto. This kind of rubbish has been going on with nudges and winks in Macedonia for the last 15 years and only the politicians can make a difference. They are too busy finding income streams to care.

No this kind of 'rubbish' has not being going on at all for the past 15 years. The FA is 10 years old now and no one even dreams of its demise in Macedonia because everyone one knows it will lead to war and no one wants that.

If you reject them .... shout it from the rooftops and make your family back home reject it. Don't hush everyone in the corner and plan for the next century. It will be too late.

Who am I hushing exactly?

If some fear the consequences of rejecting the FA & IA, then what hope is there for them when they don't understand the consequences of accepting the IA and FA.

I am sorry to say it, Macedonians in Macedonia have yet to fight for what they have (certainly in the last 100 years). I think a struggle hardens one's resolve. There has been no struggle ... yet.

2001 was a major blow to the nation and not just from the FA point.
What we had was a nation ready to defend itself but the politicians that did not have the countries best interest at heart, only thier own agendas.

And without Macedonians prapared to defend thier country they will lose it, simple as that. The albanians will not let us build in the capital of the country and the only people to do anything about it are a bunch of teens.

There is a struggle going on but it is not a military one, its the struggle with greece for our existance and its happening around the whole world.

[julie]

i don't know how to say it when macedonia split up from yugoslavia everyone said that hardly a shot was fired.Macedonians have never fought for their existence ,their identity.Alexander fought his enemies with tactics & feats of strength where he was outnumbered 10 to one.I think macedonia's day to fight may come one day & it will be a fight to the death.

The Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia did fight for their existence George. My own family bear the scars to show for it.
They fought to the death.
I take offense at that comment as am sure many other Aegean Macedonians that were involved in the civil wars following WW2.
My maternal grandfather also fought in WW2, came home and then his young son was a partisan during the "Greek" civil war. Think before you write
That is all

[Risto the Great]

First of all, let me say that I don't think that Macedonia should and will change the name. The public opinion shifted away from that possibility. Not even one single letter before or after the name. There is no need for that, and there is no justification for that at all.

When did public opinion shift? I think public opinion has never even been part of the strategy whatsoever. We could have had a composite name as recent as last year. When did things change in your opinion and why and how?

But to get there, we first need to get rid of the obligation accepted by our previous governments. That obligation was imposed on us. We can (and should) blame our previous governments, but that won’t help us much.

The previous government may have accepted the obligations but the current government is implementing and fighting for its applicability. You are effectively suggesting they are in fact going to court to prove the IA is finished. You are wrong, they are going to court to force Greece to abide by the agreement.

If Greece gets convicted, Greece will refuse to fulfill the judgment. They are too stubborn to go through a humiliation of writing to all NATO members that they are changing their mind about opposing Macedonian membership to NATO. That will give us a perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement.

Greece tells France, we can't veto now .... you do it for us. etc. etc. Either way, we are still talking about going to court to enforce the agreement. Every single one of Macedonia's actions in recent years has been faultless in this regard. This is nothing more than an affirmation of FYROM and all that goes with it, including the horrible new flag.

If Greece does not get convicted, we will get another perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement. The only protective clause of that Agreement becomes legally unenforceable, so we can nullify the Agreement. We have right to do so, we only need to wait 11 months after we announce it.

So why go to court? It is obvious what Greece did and Macedonia has already given up its symbols and name AND it got nowhere as a result. Why not simply say the agreement is over?

GStojanov, even if your analysis is correct, nullifying the agreement means precisely what for you? Does it mean Macedonia is not FYROM anymore and that it will pursue membership in NATO and EU as Macedonia? That it will revert back to its previous flag? You must realise the ruling is not enforceable IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, as a consequence, it is a waste of time and financial resources. It is also embarrassing.

The third possibility (the least plausible) is: Greece gets convicted and Greece decides to comply. That will continue the process of negotiation, but that would also strengthen our international position, and we will continue EU and NATO integration. That will merely postpone the resolution of the name issue, until we feel strong enough and on equal footing with Greece, so we can freely assert our rights.

Why are you saying this possibility is the "least plausible" when this is supposedly what the Macedonian Government is going to court to achieve?

You are in the get into the institutions under the FYROM name camp. This is wrong and your logic is flawed. There will NEVER EVER be an equal footing entering in those organisations with an externally imposed name. This is a naive and distorted stance you have taken on a very fundamental issue. Unfortunately, it is a stance that many Macedonian in Macedonia (or FYROM for you) continue to believe. Again, it will never be an equal footing and we will never be strong enough, the rest of the member nations joined with their own names.

[Risto the Great]

No this kind of 'rubbish' has not being going on at all for the past 15 years. The FA is 10 years old now and no one even dreams of its demise in Macedonia because everyone one knows it will lead to war and no one wants that.

The IA is 15 odd years old and was the beginning of the end. It was a chance to affirm the Macedonian identity, it was blown. Since then it has all been downhill.

Who am I hushing exactly?

Whenever you say the time is not right, we need to do this and that and that .... you are effectively telling them to hush it up in the corner until we are ready.

And without Macedonians prapared to defend thier country they will lose it, simple as that. The albanians will not let us build in the capital of the country and the only people to do anything about it are a bunch of teens.

There is a struggle going on but it is not a military one, its the struggle with greece for our existance and its happening around the whole world.

Reading your text above, we must blame Albanians and Greeks and older Macedonians. I am happy you apportion at least some blame on Macedonians.

Isn't it embarrassing just saying it out aloud. The Albanians not letting Macedonians do what they want in their own Macedonian homeland. Disgraceful.

The struggle is nothing to do with Greece nor Albanians. It is to do with Macedonians and Macedonians only. A revolution of the Macedonian mind can fix this all immediately.

[Risto the Great]

To be fair, Macedonians did fight during WWII and the 'Greek' civil war.

I was talking about Macedonians in the Republic so we can leave out the civil war. WWII should be clarified, can you highlight any examples of Macedonia's struggle for independence during WWII by the Macedonians in the Republic? I genuinely can't think of any but would love to read about it.

[Vangelovski]

I was talking about Macedonians in the Republic so we can leave out the civil war. WWII should be clarified, can you highlight any examples of Macedonia's struggle for independence during WWII by the Macedonians in the Republic? I genuinely can't think of any but would love to read about it.

RtG, from the personal testimony of every veteran that I have spoken to (family and others) they were all under the impression that their fight would eventually lead to an independent state. In fact, wasn't it Cento's plan to lead an army to Solun in 1944-45, until the infamous massacre in Skopje (not sure why the Macedonians did not fight back) and then forced march to Srem? I'm not that versed of Macedonian WWII history, but wasn't Cento planning in an independent state? Maybe someone can clarify?

[Onur]

Greece tells France, we can't veto now .... you do it for us. etc. etc.

Thats exactly what happened to Turkey for EU membership negotiations. From 1995 to 2005, Greece started to veto our membership negotiation process after we joined customs union with EU. Then as soon as we started the negotiation in 2005, Greece stopped vetoing us and left that job to Cyprus and France. Currently, Cyprus and France vetoes Turkey for 6 years. I am 100% sure that if Sarkozy goes away and new PM gets selected in France, then Greece would start vetoing us again.

Also don't forget, Greeks got 2 vote in EU. One for Greece and one for Cyprus.


For your admission to NATO, afaik Greece and France vetoes Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

WWII should be clarified, can you highlight any examples of Macedonia's struggle for independence during WWII by the Macedonians in the Republic? I genuinely can't think of any but would love to read about it.

Perhaps because there is a lack of literature about it in English (as most sources are in Macedonian), but in any case, you haven't looked into the topic enough. I agree with most of what you wrote in the post except the '100 years' time frame. A lot of the Macedonian struggle during WWII was aimed against Bulgarian occupiers and to a lesser degree against Albanians, Serbs, Italians and Germans. There were partisan detachments consisting of Macedonians that were active in Prilep, Bitola, Skopje, Kumanovo, Prespa, Veles, Krusevo and other areas in the republic. One of the reasons for the subsequent 'Greek' civil war arising came as a consequence of collaborative activities between Macedonians from both the Vardar and Aegean regions. Macedonians from the republic were active in the Aegean, and assisted in the mobilisation and organisation of local Macedonian groups.

[sydney]

I was talking about Macedonians in the Republic so we can leave out the civil war. WWII should be clarified, can you highlight any examples of Macedonia's struggle for independence during WWII by the Macedonians in the Republic? I genuinely can't think of any but would love to read about it.

read the book "Sudeni za Makedonija" and you might learn something. your comments are more than ignorant and come across as arrogant.

[Risto the Great]

Sydney, do you gave a link for that book? I certainly have an interest. I freely admit not having perfect knowledge of post WW2 RoM but cannot recall anything resembling a fight for liberation. Nothing dramatic comes to mind. If they were fighting for independence from the Bulgarians, why 50 years of being Serbia's doormat thereafter?

SoM, how much assistance from Vardar during the civil war has been documented?

[George S.]

Julie I'm talking about any fighting from one government to another,we all know that individulas have suffered immensly at the hands of their enemies.Agean macedonia is a different thing alltogether where people suffered immensly.I was merely speaking of alexander the great being outnumbered 10 t01 & through herculean feat beat his enemies.Perhaps if we face an all out war the macedonian fighting spirit could probably come out.We need a herculean feat like alexander's to beat our enemies.At no point do i intend to say that the struggle by the aegean people is not worthy but to say that perhaps if we struggled as a whole country, against greece,bulgaria we might beat our enemies.Perhaps a revolution of some sort will bring it all back.Note i did not mean to offend you in regards to the ageans as everyone knows the immense sacrifices they went to fight their enemies.
Here's the link to that book you might have to zoom it. "Sudeni za Makedonija

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37255531/Sudeni-za-Makedonija-1945-1985