International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Soldier of Macedon]

I freely admit not having perfect knowledge of post WW2 RoM but cannot recall anything resembling a fight for liberation. Nothing dramatic comes to mind.

That's because of the supression of Macedonian (and other) nationalism, certain victories would be 'promoted' if they held more significance for the Yugoslav collective, but expressions of exclusive Macedonian determination would not.

If they were fighting for independence from the Bulgarians, why 50 years of being Serbia's doormat thereafter?

Belgrade still held overall power in Yugoslavia. They forced our people from the republic to fight on the 'Sremski Front' (1945) to protect Serbia from the retreating Germans. Have a read of this article from Sasha Uzunov:

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/uzunov/uzunov_srem.html

This held back valuable assistance required in the Aegean where Chento from the republic had already led actions (1943). The Macedonian Republic was declared (1944), and Chento was imprisoned a few years later (1946). Yugoslav/Serbian domination over all Macedonian affairs was subsequently consolidated around the time of the Tito-Stalin split (1948) and the end of the 'Greek' civil war (1949). Macedonians from the republic had every intention of pursuing the complete liberation of Macedonia, but the 'spheres of influence' between West and East now ran along the border of 'northern Greece', and the previously 'friendly' Yugoslav authorities subsequently became enemies of the Macedonian liberation movement. The real 'brainwashing' began from the 1950's, and was assisted by Macedonian traitors and serbophiles.

SoM, how much assistance from Vardar during the civil war has been documented?

Risto, read the below too for further information (and excerpts of the book that Sydney was making reference to):

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=434&highlight=sudeni

[Risto the Great]

Thanks SoM, I will review the links.

I guess I am trying to reconcile any expression of a desire for liberation and sovereignty with the current nation that is begging to be called FYROM to get into the EU and NATO. I am not convinced they want it bad enough and (apart from Chento) have never expressed such desires on a grand scale since the Ilinden fighters and civil war fighters in my opinion.

Again, my knowledge of events in RoM over the last 50 years is light and will fix that. My reason for stating it is because nothing appears to be celebrated from that era. Is that a fair point?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks SoM, I will review the links.

I guess I am trying to reconcile any expression of a desire for liberation and sovereignty with the current nation that is begging to be called FYROM to get into the EU and NATO. I am not convinced they want it bad enough and (apart from Chento) have never expressed such desires on a grand scale since the Ilinden fighters and civil war fighters in my opinion.

Again, my knowledge of events in RoM over the last 50 years is light and will fix that. My reason for stating it is because nothing appears to be celebrated from that era. Is that a fair point?

Some of it came to be (and is) celebrated, but none of it was from the 1950's for a considerable period. If you read into to the subject, you will be convinced of the desire of the Macedonians in the republic prior to 1949. After that, it was too late, the problem (as always) was poor leadership that could consolidate the factions and form a united front. It could have been made successful as a liberation effort at the conclusion of WWII in 1945, when probably 88,500 Macedonian soldiers (figure given by Serbian statistics) were fighting in norther Serbia and elsewhere in Yugoslavia instead of southern Macedonia, it could have been achieved during the 'Greek' civil war, but I don't think a lack of desire was the determining factor in our defeat, just like it wasn't in the revolutionary efforts of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

[Prolet]

SOM, If you recall i posted a radio link from SBS radio and it had the presidents from UMD,Victorian Council, VMRO Melbourne and a representative from AMHRC. They unanimously agreed that we should break away from these talks with Greece that was my whole point. As for who the VMRO Zadgranicen Komitet is, they are representatives from the VMRO DPMNE party, there is a Zadgranicen Komitet (SDSM) in Sydney and i was told that DUI also have one in Dandenong somewhere. Im not sure what their sole purpose is and what they do i would assume they protect the interests of the VMRO Party in Macedonia.

[GStojanov]

Risto,

You may be right about everything else, but for this:

Macedonia (or FYROM for you)

you are dead wrong.

[Risto the Great]

you are dead wrong.

OK, FYROM for you only for EU & NATO ....maybe UN and maybe the International Chess Organisation.

You provided the scenario in a positive light whereby Macedonia will eventually get on an even footing and be in a better position to argue for its name. Do you disagree with this? If you don't, why add fuel to such a destructive path?

[Bill77]

Maria Telalian, the Foreign Ministry's legal adviser, told ICJ yesterday that Greece had not blocked Macedonia's application for NATO membership, i.e. breached the Article 11, as the country submitted the application under its constitutional name. The Article 11 incorporates precaution paragraph that entitles Greece to object if the applicant country is not being addressed under the interim reference, she said.

"The fact that the country applied for NATO membership under its constitutional name, despite its obligation to not use it, opens room for our objection.

I can't believe how dumb and what lying bastards these people are. How can they lie in court and get away with it?

Telalian accused Macedonia of blocking any settlement on the name row, delaying UN-mediated talks and praised Greece for demonstrating good will,

Excuse me while i go and throw up.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17846/46/

[George S.]

THat's right Bill the greeks are liars instead of us being the victims they pretend to be victims & turn things around.Like they are stealing macedonia well they say the are liberating it.Or that we are stealing their history.There's no lenghts these thieves will go.If the icj beleives them then they'll beleive anything.What a joke greece demostrating goodwill in the name negotitions.That means like the flag fiasco that we don't have any rights to the name.Instead of refusing to discuss our name because our name is a name we are stupid enough to fall into their hands.

[Soldier of Macedon]

As for who the VMRO Zadgranicen Komitet is, they are representatives from the VMRO DPMNE party, there is a Zadgranicen Komitet (SDSM) in Sydney.......i would assume they protect the interests of the VMRO Party in Macedonia.

So they are simply an arm in the diaspora representing the interests of a government (and not Macedonia's interests) that is negotiating our name and identity. Good to know.

SOM, If you recall i posted a radio link from SBS radio and it had the presidents from UMD,Victorian Council, VMRO Melbourne and a representative from AMHRC. They unanimously agreed that we should break away from these talks with Greece that was my whole point.

Prolet, I don't recall. Who were the representatives for each group? And why are 'VMRO Melbourne' saying the opposite to what 'VMRO Macedonia' are?

[Risto the Great]

And why are 'VMRO Melbourne' saying the opposite to what 'VMRO Macedonia' are?

Surely the difference in opinion on such a fundamental matter would be fuel for abandoning support for DPMNE Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

One would be inclined to think so - which begs the question. Why?

[George S.]

Greece merge Hague negotiations



According to Athens, every previous contract (as with NATO) prevails over the interim agreement

Tamara Grncharoska

The trial before the International Court of Justice can not be seen separately from the dispute, on which the court had no jurisdiction. If the court decides to rule on the issue, you must reply to the name, which would mean his engaging in the political process. With these legal interpretations and warnings to the Greek court appearances yesterday by the second day of the oral presentation of his defense of the lawsuit in Macedonia for contempt of interim agreement. Greek legal team while he stayed in the interpretation of Articles 11 and 22 of the Treaty as the basis of koja Greece derives its right to act and its position on the country's membership in NATO. Macedonia has been accused for years breach the Agreement, especially Articles 5 and 11 (insisting on its constitutional name, the use of symbols), which repeatedly warned Athens, finally "losing patience".
Greek team yesterday presented that NATO is not part of the Interim Agreement, and hence, the Agreement does not apply to the Alliance. It was explained through the interpretation of Article 22 of the Treaty - the obligations they have undertaken both countries to third parties, pointing out that that article specifies that "the obligations of each contract prior nadvladuvaat above agreement, and it applies to all multilateral agreements already were in force.

Macedonia yesterday in The Hague was accused of conducting secret strategy for forcing the constitutional name and insistence on the double formula as its red line, while that played negotiate a mutually acceptable solution with Greece. Athens, he said her defense, it found before the NATO Summit in Bucharest, after which she was forced to use Article 22 of the Treaty.

The defense called for a statement of Branko Crvenkovski, as a president, in which he said that Macedonia had a strategy that was not public, but until that holding all officials, which was functional and refers to the double formula. They called for his statement made in the Macedonian Parliament in which he assesses as a successful strategy to increase the number of countries that are not recognized under its constitutional name, "would be successful for the next stage of the process." For Greece, this type of attitude and action of Macedonia, in fact, violate the Agreement in 1995, and its intention to re-write the article 11 of the contract. "The right that is given to the plaintiff is not unconditional and it is determined by the provisional name given to the UN Resolution for use in all international organizations so as not resolved differences over the name," said defense.

In addition to the Macedonian breach of this Agreement, accompanied by the Greek team yesterday, as he said, two important evidence. The first is the appointment of Macedonia with its constitutional name by Srdjan Kerim as he chaired the UN General Assembly, and the second is the utilization of the position of Chairman of the Council of Ministers Council of Europe by the country to use its constitutional name.

Greek legal team yesterday once the Court explained that NATO is an organization that has closed closed procedure of admission on the basis of consensus, after fulfilling the obligations of the applicants to address all ethnic, territorial, and even irredentist issues peacefully. Greece thus argues that the alliance does not recognize a formal procedure of voting and veto, while attaching a statement as evidence of NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, made after the Bucharest Summit, in which he said that "NATO does not understand the word veto, but consensus. " (St)

Key members of the Agreement

Key members of the Interim Agreement on which "turns" indictment, but the defense, the process in The Hague are 5, 11 and 22.

Article 5 provides for continuation of negotiations over the name to reach agreement on differences.

Article 11 refers to the consent of Greece does not object to the admission of Macedonia in international organizations under the temporary name of FYROM.

Article 22 provides that the Interim Agreement does not violate the rights and obligations arising from contracts have two countries with third parties, which are already in force. (St)


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Испрати коментар



From: "vodolija"
Date: 26/03/2011 1950

Cl 22 od Privremenata spogodba ne gi povreduva obvrskite i pravata sto proizleguvaat od dogovorite sto gi imaat dvete zemji so treti strani, a sto se veke vo sila. Od tuka e ocigledno deka na Makedonija - podnesenata tuzba ie BEZPREDMETNA. TOA TI E KAKO ONA NARODNATA-"TRLA BABA DLAN DA JOJ PRODZE DAN" ZOSTO? ZATOA STO: Grcija ima skluceno dogovor so NATO-megju prvite clanki na NATO-i vo toj dogovor nikade ne stoi deka Grcija ima nekakva obvrska sprema RM da ja pocituva taa Privremena spogodba. No ke ima obvrska da ja pocituva privremenata spogodba i cl. 11 vo novi skljuceni dogovori - posle Privremenata spogodba. Toa e nepobiten fakt i nemoze ovoj sud koj sega resava da go izmeni!!!




From: Ljubotan-Trade Name!
Date: 27/03/2011 03:15:28

From: Ljubotan Trade Name Date: 24.03.2011 22:38:42 Pa Grckata strana ostro go otfrluva obvinenieto od Republika Makedonija, tocka po tocka gi poentirala site serii na provokacija, ai irendisticki stremezi na Republika Makedonija.Medju drugite, i provokativno da vleguva kako RM, a ne so imeto so koe se dogovorile dvete strani, voON.Republika Makedonija da go Koristi imeto PJRM-FJRM vo site Medju drzavni institucii i sportki nastani, a posebno bas tamu, kade clenuva Grcka-Zarem ne, ne Otvrlija-diskfalifikacija vo sportot kogaj na sila sakavme da ne vikaat Republika Makedonija! Republika Makedonija, sekade go gurkase nejzinoto ustavno ime, iako znaese, deka ON-recognised kako; Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia .. Eee bas tuka e prvata Makedonska Arogantna i Diplomatska, Nediplomatija. Zarem uste ne sme naucile; Politika nee Pravda, Diplomatija e Diplomatia! Samo me inteeresira koi ce gi Drpnat ovie 500 $ na sat.20 advokati po 5oo $ na sat = 10.000 $. A, za 4 godini.Dali smem, da znam cena na Ovoj Cirku




From: za zal od avstralija
Date: 27/03/2011 04:06:49

Vodolija .... clen 22 "da ne gi povreduva obrskite i pravata ....." koi obrski i prava Makedonija gi povreduva na Grcija so zaclenuvanje vo NATO ????, naprotiv i ke gi podobri poziciiite na organizacijata kako takva. Grcija bese taa koi gi povredi obvskite i pravata na NATO so toa sto ja koristese alijansata za da postigne svoi celi, citaj agenda a zatoa tipicno "po grcki" barase vina vo drug. Toa inaku i nema vrska so narodite tuka samo so dobro i loso vodena politika od strana na politicarite od site 3 strani (3-ta strana bi bila site clenki na NATO osven grcija)




From: petre
Date: 27/03/2011 12:36:22

Togas nasata ofbrana ke mora da se povika na clenot za covekovite prava od ON, koj i samite grci go imaat potpisano




By: Akademik, MANU
Date: 27/03/2011 13:42:52

Postapkata vo Megunarodniot sud za legalitet na dopolnitelnite (nelgalni) uslovi, nadvor od Povelbata na OON, može da se vodi i bez raskinuvanje na Vremenata spogodba ili slični postapki!! Celata akcija, imeno, e vodi Generalnoto sobranie na OON, a ne RM. Znači Spogodbata e nerelevantna za vakva akcija, koja RM treba da inicira vo Generalnoto sobranie na OON. Nikakvi tužbi i slični akcii ne se potrebni! RM samo treba da inicira Nacrt rezolucija so postavuva prašanje Dali se specifični uslovi za priemot na MK i statusot vo soglasnost so Povelbata na OON (čl. 2 i čl. 4). Nie, inače, možeme, vo slučaj na potreba, da dademe (ako se hipltetički pobara) izjava vo koja što smetame deka delot od Spogodbata, vo vrska so referencata / pregovorite tretirame kako sportivni na Jus cogens i, spored toa bez pravno dejstvo! Spored najgolem broj svetski teorijski sfakanja, megutoa, duri ni ovaa izjava nemora da se dade. So drugi zborovi, nema pravni prečki, odbilo kakov vid, da se, preku Sobranieto na




From: Boshko
Date: 27/03/2011 14:57:21

Gospod da chuva, tolku umni i ucheni lugje vo DPMNE a ni eden ne e sposoben daa mu nosi voda na Crvenkovski, zoshto go pishuvam ova Razmislete, do kolku imashe kapacitet sudot vo Hag Branko i SDSM ushte vednash po opstrukcijata vo Bukuresht Toj kako pretsedatek na Mk. Ke podneseshe tuzba protiv R, Grcija, no Toj misleshe za Mk.Narod i znaeshe deka po pusto bi bila tuzbata protiv Grcija i za toa ne ja podnese, pa sega videte i samite koj e za narodot a koj e za lichna Egzistencija i Reiting ( popularnost)

http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=BD441C53079B254092A1DB02F82CB6C7

[Risto the Great]

GStojanov,
I certainly do not want to put words in your mouth.
Do you disagree with Macedonia entering into NATO/EU/UN as FYROM?

[George S.]

WE have been sold out by successive inept macedonian governments.Past governments have sold us out on the flag without consulting the people.They are perfectly happy rto capitulate & give their right to greece & instead chose the ventilator (compromise).Then at the same time the interim name of Fyrom was accepted by branko without consulting with the people.Then you have gruevski accepting to change the name to republic of macedonia(skopje) greece refusing to accept that name.In the mean time the govt
capitulating & willing to compromise futher on it's name & not consulting with the people.The speculation of people saying that we should enter nato as fyrom is not right greece does not want that.To be truthfull greece would like macedonia to cease to exist & not use any reference.But i'm hearing stories of compound names,prefixes /suffixes no one knows what name greece is going to accept.Personall they should stop negotiating our name it's ours & not for compromise.
If people knew what the truth is in regards of our govt attempts to capitulate & compromise on our name they would revolt.

[Risto the Great]

All good points George.

If people knew what the truth is in regards of our govt attempts to capitulate & compromise on our name they would revolt.

Are you sure about this? Is there really any doubt about the truth on these issues?