International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[indigen]

WE have been sold out by successive inept macedonian governments.Past governments have sold us out on the flag without consulting the people.They are perfectly happy rto capitulate & give their right to greece & instead chose the ventilator (compromise).Then at the same time the interim name of Fyrom was accepted by branko without consulting with the people.Then you have gruevski accepting to change the name to republic of macedonia(skopje) greece refusing to accept that name.In the mean time the govt
capitulating & willing to compromise further on it's name & not consulting with the people.The speculation of people saying that we should enter nato as fyrom is not right greece does not want that.To be truthful greece would like macedonia to cease to exist & not use any reference.But i'm hearing stories of compound names,prefixes /suffixes no one knows what name greece is going to accept.Personal they should stop negotiating our name it's ours & not for compromise.
If people knew what the truth is in regards of our govt attempts to capitulate & compromise on our name they would revolt.

George S, there are something that are NOT (and should NEVER BE) negotiable and thus "consulting" the people (via a referendum) can sometimes make (via manipulations, intimidation and bribery) matters worse, IMHO! One clear case where a REFERENDUM will make matters worse is the Gruevski and "DPMNE" position and INTENT on putting the final national suicide capitulation on the name (of the state and all that emanates from that) to the "people" (including Ghegs, Roma, Turks, Serbs and other non-Macedonians, whose identities and national interests are unaffected by the process!), something Macedonians should resist with vigour, passion and spirit of resistance. The whole concept of a referendum on the name issue is repulsive from the start as it puts into international circulation the idea (view) that Macedonian's national identity is undefined by the mere fact that they are yet to "choose" their state name, and thus questioning the national sovereignty (which has been extensively compromised to-date) and legitimacy.

[makedonche]

George S, there are something that are NOT (and should NEVER BE) negotiable and thus "consulting" the people (via a referendum) can sometimes make (via manipulations, intimidation and bribery) matters worse, IMHO! One clear case where a REFERENDUM will make matters worse is the Gruevski and "DPMNE" position and INTENT on putting the final national suicide capitulation on the name (of the state and all that emanates from that) to the "people" (including Ghegs, Roma, Turks, Serbs and other non-Macedonians, whose identities and national interests are unaffected by the process!), something Macedonians should resist with vigour, passion and spirit of resistance. The whole concept of a referendum on the name issue is repulsive from the start as it puts into international circulation the idea (view) that Macedonian's national identity is undefined by the mere fact that they are yet to "choose" their state name, and thus questioning the national sovereignty (which has been extensively compromised to-date) and legitimacy.

Indigen
...add to your comments the fact that the make up of the population has changed significantly since independence and you have another good reason not to seek a referendum on something that is already determined, which makes me think that those in charge are attempting a blame free shift from sovreignity - they can sit back after the fact and say it wasn't our fault, the people chose it at a referendum! (after manipulating the referendum to suit their political needs).

[indigen]

All good points George.


Are you sure about this? Is there really any doubt about the truth on these issues?

A couple of articles in Mk media worth analysing and dissecting are the following:

25.03.2011 (време)

„Пакет за разбирање“ меѓу Македонија и Грција

САД шест месеци пред да се одржи самитот на НАТО во 2008 година планирале да предложат „пакет за разбирање“ меѓу Атина и Скопје, затоа што не биле оптимисти дека спорот ќе се реши пред априлскиот самит во Букурешт, пишува во доверливиот документ од американската амбасада во Атина од 22 октомври 2007 година, објави „викиликс“. Пакетот, според телеграмата од амбасадата, било планирано да содржи договор меѓу двете страни дека поканата од НАТО за Македонија ќе биде придружена со откажување од каков било обид за промена на името во која било меѓународна организација. Последново, како што е споменато во писмото, се однесува на загриженоста на Грција дека Македонија ќе се обиде во Генералното собрание на ОН да поднесе барање за признавање под уставното име. „Викиликс“ објавува дека договорот би содржел и заедничка изјава во која би се повториле основните точки од Привремената спогодба, за почитување на постојните граници, откажување од територијалните претензии на Македонија, како и за откажување на Македонија од мешањето во внатрешните работи на друга држава за заштита на правата на тамошните граѓани. ...Повеќе

http://www.tv-sonce.com/

-------------

Да беше до САД, проблемот со името ќе беше решен

Никогаш не сме го гледале овој проблем како проблем на идентитетот, бидејќи вашиот идентитет си е ваш идентитет. Ваш е како земја, како група, како семејство: секој си има свој идентитет и никој не може да го смени тоа. Можеби така ние ги дефинираме нашите идентитети во различните култури, но има и одредени фосилизирани перцепции, кога идентитетот го засновате врз нешто објавено на некоја веб-страница, на некоја гласина или на нечиј туѓ концепт за идентитет

ИНТЕРВЈУ: Филип Рикер, амбасадор
Прашањето за името било темата за која постојано морал да разговара, иако тоа не било некаков избор, вели американскиот амбасадор Филип Рикер, кој го завршува мандатот во Македонија. Овде тој говори за својот (американскиот) поглед на спорот и за можните начини за решавање. Тој смета дека на проблемот треба да му се пристапи од друг агол и убеден е дека сепак не станува збор за промена на идентитетот на начин на кој тој го толкува.

Македонија и Соединетите Американски Држави имаат блиски и пријателски односи. Во моментов, преговорите за името се од клучна важност за Македонија. Претпоставувам дека следите што се случува во Хаг. Нашиот противник, Грција, конечно застана на своите „црвени линии“, кои не само што се неприфатливи туку и излегуваат од меѓународните норми и ги нарушуваат основните човекови права. САД помагаат во преговорите со името, процес во кој и вие самиот сте вклучен, ама може да се заклучи дека понекогаш, и покрај добрите намери, пријателите не можат да помогнат. Зошто е така?

[.....]

Дека решението треба да се бара во име за надворешна употреба без навлегување во идентитетот, се чини е заедничка, и македонска и американска, платформа за разговори. За жал, ЕУ не го препознава тоа и бара проблемот да се реши со компромис. Како Европа да ја препознае таа позиција? Како да ја приближиме Европа до позициите на Македонија и Америка?

[.....]

http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=325112118345&id=9&setIzdanie=22241

--------------------

22 март 2011 година, Скопје, Македонија (СМК) - ".....Светскиот Македонски Конгрес бара итен и безусловен прекин на разговорите за разликата за државното име Македонија и продолжување на членството во Обединетите Нации и во сите меѓународни организации под државното име Македонија..."

22 март 2011 година, Скопје, Македонија (СМК) - "....Демагогијата „Македонија да не го менува државното име во Уставот за внатрешна употреба, а да договори ново меѓународно име како замена на временото обраќање во Обединетите Нации" претставува перфиден обид за трајна промена на државното име Македонија, затоа што името не служи за дома, туку претставува легитимација пред светот, насекаде, пред секого и во секое време. Државното име Македонија е едно и единствено име и за внатрешна и за надворешна меѓународна употреба!...."

10 февруари 2011 година, Скопје, Македонија (СМК) - ....Светскиот Македонски Конгрес ги повикува политичките партии да демонстрираат единство во одбраната на државното име, а не за негова промена. Промената на државното име засекогаш ќе претставува велепредавство, злосторство против човештвото, геноцид врз македонскиот народ и флагрантно кршење на универзалните човекови и граѓански права и слободи. Македонците никогаш, под какви и да е услови и од било чија страна, нема да прифатат промена на државното име Македоија!...Ќ

[indigen]

Indigen
...add to your comments the fact that the make up of the population has changed significantly since independence and you have another good reason not to seek a referendum on something that is already determined, which makes me think that those in charge are attempting a blame free shift from sovereignty - they can sit back after the fact and say it wasn't our fault, the people chose it at a referendum! (after manipulating the referendum to suit their political needs).

Exactly right, Makedonche!

[Pelister]

First of all, let me say that I don't think that Macedonia should and will change the name. The public opinion shifted away from that possibility. Not even one single letter before or after the name. There is no need for that, and there is no justification for that at all.

I do agree that this agreement is detrimental for Macedonia, and I do think that ultimately it will be abandoned by us (Greeks won’t do that, since it benefits them more than it costs them).

I also think that the name issue will be solved by Macedonia asking UN to reevaluate its decision to impose provisional references on us. And we will win that case.

But to get there, we first need to get rid of the obligation accepted by our previous governments. That obligation was imposed on us. We can (and should) blame our previous governments, but that won’t help us much.

If Greece gets convicted, Greece will refuse to fulfill the judgment. They are too stubborn to go through a humiliation of writing to all NATO members that they are changing their mind about opposing Macedonian membership to NATO. That will give us a perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement.

If Greece does not get convicted, we will get another perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement. The only protective clause of that Agreement becomes legally unenforceable, so we can nullify the Agreement. We have right to do so, we only need to wait 11 months after we announce it.

The third possibility (the least plausible) is: Greece gets convicted and Greece decides to comply. That will continue the process of negotiation, but that would also strengthen our international position, and we will continue EU and NATO integration. That will merely postpone the resolution of the name issue, until we feel strong enough and on equal footing with Greece, so we can freely assert our rights.

I think your missing the point. Our 'identity' and our name is in play, because Gruevski has chosen to meddle with it. Because of Gruevski our identity is in fact open to negotiation, as Gruevski has clearly demonstrated again and again. Just to prove how deceiptful and treacherous Gruevski is, he has stated that the Macedonians will decide what their name is! Think about that. Has anyone given Gruevski authority to be tinkering and meddling with our identity in the first place? Why subvert our identity? Who would actually reduce our cultural and historical identity down to a fkn political vote? The answer is Gruevski would. Think about how treacherous Gruevski is to do that. Was it ever an election issue? No. He has just gone ahead and done it. You are saying 'I don't think they will do it' - what we are saying, is that as long as our identity is in play, it is still possible that someone will. We are involved in a war of extermination here, and it sickens me that individuals want to meddle with our identity as though it were a political bargaining chip. That is precisely what Gruevski is doing. The invading 'Greeks' don't have a case. Their assumptions are false. There is nothing ethical or moral about their position. Any reasonable and sane person would reject their position outright - yet, he we have Gruevski giving the Greeks all the support they could ever dream of.

[Volk]

Most people on the ground seem to be in a fantasy and not understand that greece is trying to destroy our nation, they want us to exists as a stateut just a weak pathetic one....

Even SDS says they will change the name but not the identity... Idiots, greece would not even accept this (if you can separate the two that is)

[fyrOM]

I think your missing the point. Our 'identity' and our name is in play, because Gruevski has chosen to meddle with it. Because of Gruevski our identity is in fact open to negotiation, as Gruevski has clearly demonstrated again and again. Just to prove how deceiptful and treacherous Gruevski is, he has stated that the Macedonians will decide what their name is! Think about that. Has anyone given Gruevski authority to be tinkering and meddling with our identity in the first place? Why subvert our identity?

I wasn't going to post, but sometimes I cannot stop myself!

Could you possible imagine a different reason for Gruevski's actions other than what you have just said?

When 'speaking to the devil' EVERY word counts! and EVERY word has a literal meaning!

Gruevski comes into office and finds the IA already in action.
"Will you continue the negotiations and work towards EU integration"

He realises the country is weak (from the Billions the vial scum Crvenkovski and others stole) and in need of a build-up.
"Sure, I'll keep talking (znam da tropam) - give me money to modernise to EU standards for EU integration."

"Are you working towards a solution?"

"Sure I am (potam kaj gazot koga ke prdnam) - give me more money to modernise."

"Will the People get to decide on the 'name issue'?"

"We are a democracy aren't we? Such a decision can ONLY be made by the people (phew! - I didn't have to lie about that one).
Yes the people will decide what their name is" - only after I pump them full of "NO" resentment to a name change and get the fiercely stout diaspora to get their papers and voting rights in order, ke vi kazam posle.

Internally Gruevski starts to dig up Crvenkovski's roots and suppot base ie A1 and how to bury him and other corruption (ie judges ect)

EU asses Macedonia's efforts in reforms and gives an excellent review.
It is becoming obvious that very soon the ONLY reason Macedonia cannot move forward is the 'name issue'.

"I'm taking Greece to court for the right to be in NATO and anywhere else as FYROM!"
RtG and Others faint on the spot from shock! When they come-to the curse and bitch on the MTO.

Once in we're in! - remember they couldn't kick Greece out because there was no mechanism to do so?

Gruevski 'lets his fingers do the walking' and calls all those companies and Governments who he previously visited (remember Gruevski's and Ivanov's globe trotting a while ago) and said they would invest in/support Macedonia if she was an 'easy in' to the EU market for them.

"So have you come up with a name?"

"You know, I was thinking, we have tried about every combination possible and still we can't get both countries to agree. It's gone on long enough - this 'name' thing is bunkum! I'm going to see what the UN says again."

Gruevski call those governments again the night before,"Remember which way to vote tomorrow - right?, and I'll see you at the Macedonia party on the weekend - ok?"

RtG and Others shout a CHEER, "Ding Dong, the IA is dead!!!! Our efforts to force the government to get rid of the IA have paid off - We're heroes!!!"

Of lele majko, kolku lesno e!

PS - Sorry to everyone else for the simple style of witting.

[Risto the Great]

Aplogise for your simple style of thinking fyrOM, not writing.
You are in the camp that says "we are Macedonians, let's get into these organisations as FYROM (not you btw) then we will show them"

Gruevski can call anyone the night before and they will still hear a softcock on the other end of the phone line who sold his country for something that descended Macedonia into utter subservience.

Meanwhile Greece calls those other nations and we go back to the future circa 15 years ago.

lele majko kolku budala si

[fyrOM]

Aplogise for your simple style of thinking fyrOM, not writing.
You are in the camp that says "we are Macedonians, let's get into these organisations as FYROM (not you btw) then we will show them"

Gruevski can call anyone the night before and they will still hear a softcock on the other end of the phone line who sold his country for something that descended Macedonia into utter subservience.

Meanwhile Greece calls those other nations and we go back to the future circa 15 years ago.

lele majko kolku budala si

Do you see how simple you think?

Those "countries" don't want broke-ass Greece! They want an 'easy-in' to the EU market (yes via some country) and have chosen Macedonia because of the low tax rates and other business incentives.
Love you has F all to do with it.
Pijackata e bratski ama sirejneto e so pari. and Macedonia offers the best deal who intern wants their vote at the UN.

[Risto the Great]

fyrOM, again I find myself debating with a dim-wit.
Low tax rates and "other business incentives" will not exist when Macedonia joins the EU. See how naive you are.
Prove the tax rates and other business incentives will exist within an EU membership. You do know that Macedonia will have to support all the other indebted EU members don't you?

Oh, and since Greece actually has industry, it can be raped and pillaged a whole lot more than Macedonia. How little you know for someone who rambles incessantly.

Macedonia will carry at least 3 times more debt the minute it joins the EU. I have proof of this and don't rely on dim-wits like you for my information. Who do you rely on, is it more of a gut feeling for you?

[George S.]

Ozimak fyrom whatever is your name after all the evidence is presented to you & you still call yourself a macedonian still not change your mind regarding your viewpoints.You would rather be anti macedonian.Why are you doing it to yourself.After it's all pointed out to you you still insist on being what you are.?an anti macedonian.
Joining the eu what's in it fomacedonia a massive debt & surrender their soveregnity to the eu.All the prices,taxes will go up.Small countries like macedonia get swallowed up.o you think the ICJ will make much difference. with the fact it does not make it's decisions binding.In other words it's a toohless tiger.

[fyrOM]

fyrOM, again I find myself debating with a dim-wit.
Low tax rates and "other business incentives" will not exist when Macedonia joins the EU. See how naive you are.
Prove the tax rates and other business incentives will exist within an EU membership. You do know that Macedonia will have to support all the other indebted EU members don't you?

Are you a little bit aware that every country in the EU has its OWN tax structure and budgets - they are Not one rule for everyone? Wasn't Greece booed for not managing her OWN budget? Likewise have you not heard Italy or even Germany have their own budgets? Do you watch the news? How do you expect me to prove anything about each country having their own budgets more than to say it is common knowledge? Did you say something about someone being naive?

Oh, and since Greece actually has industry, it can be raped and pillaged a whole lot more than Macedonia. How little you know for someone who rambles incessantly.

Buying into Greece is buying into their problems - economic and more importantly labor and wage problems. Also the fact that existing industries exist in Greece is a disincentive because you have to set up shop and compete with the incumbent or you have to buy-out that business, either of which is an expensive option.

On the other hand Macedonia is still in need of industries and setting up a new shop is cheaper. Further, Macedonia offers an extremely low tax rate while Greece is going to have to screw companies for more taxes - re EU demands. Macedonian wages are substantially lower than Greece's - remember wages in EU countries are Not the same in every country! Also, just for an example China has said they are ready to open a Computer Assembly plant in Macedonia the moment EU entry is made - by being 'built' in an EU country heavy import taxes are non-existent for the sale of those computer to the EU Market.

Macedonia will carry at least 3 times more debt the minute it joins the EU. I have proof of this and don't rely on dim-wits like you for my information. Who do you rely on, is it more of a gut feeling for you?

The EU is Not this magical everything 'milk and honey' place and carries with it negative aspects. Non-the-less the Macedonian population (including the Albanians, I mean) are set on being in the EU and this will put a lid on many internal matters. One thing that EU countries do is contribute to the EU costs proportionately to the size of their economy. This will be and added impost but is countered by the increase in economic activity. I'm Not privy to internal modeling so I cannot tell you where the pluses and minuses exist - if you are then do tell.

Besides turning this into a debate as to whether or not the EU is a good thing, suffice it to say the Macedonians want it. The point at hand is HOW to get it and still be Macedonia, which I addressed in the preceding post. Your going on about the EU being good or bad is, although similar, a separate point.

fyrOM, again I find myself debating with a dim-wit.

Despite popular opinion, Kangaroos aren't That dumb an animal.

[fyrOM]

Ozimak fyrom whatever is your name after all the evidence is presented to you & you still call yourself a macedonian still not change your mind regarding your viewpoints.You would rather be anti macedonian.Why are you doing it to yourself.After it's all pointed out to you you still insist on being what you are.?an anti macedonian.
Joining the eu what's in it fomacedonia a massive debt & surrender their soveregnity to the eu.All the prices,taxes will go up.Small countries like macedonia get swallowed up.o you think the ICJ will make much difference. with the fact it does not make it's decisions binding.In other words it's a toohless tiger.

There's the impasse George S - you and others believe the IA needs to be ripped up first and the ICJ case, AKA let me in as FYROM ect. is a bad thing and you do Not believe there is ANY alternate plan, in which case you see support of the ICJ ect. as anti-Macedonia, while I believe there is an alternate plan and derailing this plan ahead of time is anti-Macedonian. So, I kind of see it that neither of us is deliberately anti-Macedonian, like Crvenkovski and Co., but that we differ on what we think is the best rout for the advancement of Macedonia without a name change. This could be looked at with clear logical discussion - but true to Maco form, breaks down immediately into bickering and name-calling.

[Pelister]

In 1994 and E.C meeting passed a resolution stating that Macedonia must change its name.

Thats the position of the E.C and the demand they make, and that has not changed.

From an E.U point of view, this position is non-negotiable. We must change our name to enter. Anyone trying to make a case that membership is vital to our interests (when in fact it isn't), is in fact advocating we change our name.

[Risto the Great]

Twhile I believe there is an alternate plan and derailing this plan ahead of time is anti-Macedonian.

What evidence exists to support your dream assertion above?