Originally posted by Vangelovski
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International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece
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First of all, let me say that I don't think that Macedonia should and will change the name. The public opinion shifted away from that possibility. Not even one single letter before or after the name. There is no need for that, and there is no justification for that at all.
I do agree that this agreement is detrimental for Macedonia, and I do think that ultimately it will be abandoned by us (Greeks won’t do that, since it benefits them more than it costs them).
I also think that the name issue will be solved by Macedonia asking UN to reevaluate its decision to impose provisional references on us. And we will win that case.
But to get there, we first need to get rid of the obligation accepted by our previous governments. That obligation was imposed on us. We can (and should) blame our previous governments, but that won’t help us much.
If Greece gets convicted, Greece will refuse to fulfill the judgment. They are too stubborn to go through a humiliation of writing to all NATO members that they are changing their mind about opposing Macedonian membership to NATO. That will give us a perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement.
If Greece does not get convicted, we will get another perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement. The only protective clause of that Agreement becomes legally unenforceable, so we can nullify the Agreement. We have right to do so, we only need to wait 11 months after we announce it.
The third possibility (the least plausible) is: Greece gets convicted and Greece decides to comply. That will continue the process of negotiation, but that would also strengthen our international position, and we will continue EU and NATO integration. That will merely postpone the resolution of the name issue, until we feel strong enough and on equal footing with Greece, so we can freely assert our rights.
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Originally posted by GStojanov View PostWe can (and should) blame our previous governments, but that won’t help us much.
If Greece gets convicted, Greece will refuse to fulfill the judgment. They are too stubborn to go through a humiliation of writing to all NATO members that they are changing their mind about opposing Macedonian membership to NATO. That will give us a perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement.
If Greece does not get convicted, we will get another perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement.
GStojanov, do you think it is wise for Macedonia to be taking Greece to trial for not calling us fyrom in international organisations? Do you too believe in some 'grand plan' that the government in Macedonia is 'bound' to unravel?In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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[QUOTE=Risto the Great;93870]
Of course Macedonia needs to be prepared for any consequence of proposed actions. But surely 1 - 20 years is enough to suggest that there is no useful agenda nor "preparation" and that the direction is backwards not forwards for Macedonia.
QUOTE]
Not only is there no direction, there is no national stratgey exept for joining the EU and NATO, the clubs that will not recognize our name and the EU will not recognize our nation.
Volk, seriously, you reject the FA & IA. Your particular axe to grind somehow relates to the timing of the rejections and the preparations related thereto. This kind of rubbish has been going on with nudges and winks in Macedonia for the last 15 years and only the politicians can make a difference. They are too busy finding income streams to care.
If you reject them .... shout it from the rooftops and make your family back home reject it. Don't hush everyone in the corner and plan for the next century. It will be too late.
If some fear the consequences of rejecting the FA & IA, then what hope is there for them when they don't understand the consequences of accepting the IA and FA.
I am sorry to say it, Macedonians in Macedonia have yet to fight for what they have (certainly in the last 100 years). I think a struggle hardens one's resolve. There has been no struggle ... yet.
What we had was a nation ready to defend itself but the politicians that did not have the countries best interest at heart, only thier own agendas.
And without Macedonians prapared to defend thier country they will lose it, simple as that. The albanians will not let us build in the capital of the country and the only people to do anything about it are a bunch of teens.
There is a struggle going on but it is not a military one, its the struggle with greece for our existance and its happening around the whole world.Makedonija vo Srce
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Originally posted by George S. View Posti don't know how to say it when macedonia split up from yugoslavia everyone said that hardly a shot was fired.Macedonians have never fought for their existence ,their identity.Alexander fought his enemies with tactics & feats of strength where he was outnumbered 10 to one.I think macedonia's day to fight may come one day & it will be a fight to the death.
They fought to the death.
I take offense at that comment as am sure many other Aegean Macedonians that were involved in the civil wars following WW2.
My maternal grandfather also fought in WW2, came home and then his young son was a partisan during the "Greek" civil war. Think before you write
That is all"The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev
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Originally posted by GStojanov View PostFirst of all, let me say that I don't think that Macedonia should and will change the name. The public opinion shifted away from that possibility. Not even one single letter before or after the name. There is no need for that, and there is no justification for that at all.
Originally posted by GStojanov View PostBut to get there, we first need to get rid of the obligation accepted by our previous governments. That obligation was imposed on us. We can (and should) blame our previous governments, but that won’t help us much.
Originally posted by GStojanov View PostIf Greece gets convicted, Greece will refuse to fulfill the judgment. They are too stubborn to go through a humiliation of writing to all NATO members that they are changing their mind about opposing Macedonian membership to NATO. That will give us a perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement.
Originally posted by GStojanov View PostIf Greece does not get convicted, we will get another perfect opening to start a legal action to get rid of the Agreement. The only protective clause of that Agreement becomes legally unenforceable, so we can nullify the Agreement. We have right to do so, we only need to wait 11 months after we announce it.
GStojanov, even if your analysis is correct, nullifying the agreement means precisely what for you? Does it mean Macedonia is not FYROM anymore and that it will pursue membership in NATO and EU as Macedonia? That it will revert back to its previous flag? You must realise the ruling is not enforceable IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, as a consequence, it is a waste of time and financial resources. It is also embarrassing.
Originally posted by GStojanov View PostThe third possibility (the least plausible) is: Greece gets convicted and Greece decides to comply. That will continue the process of negotiation, but that would also strengthen our international position, and we will continue EU and NATO integration. That will merely postpone the resolution of the name issue, until we feel strong enough and on equal footing with Greece, so we can freely assert our rights.
You are in the get into the institutions under the FYROM name camp. This is wrong and your logic is flawed. There will NEVER EVER be an equal footing entering in those organisations with an externally imposed name. This is a naive and distorted stance you have taken on a very fundamental issue. Unfortunately, it is a stance that many Macedonian in Macedonia (or FYROM for you) continue to believe. Again, it will never be an equal footing and we will never be strong enough, the rest of the member nations joined with their own names.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Volk View PostNo this kind of 'rubbish' has not being going on at all for the past 15 years. The FA is 10 years old now and no one even dreams of its demise in Macedonia because everyone one knows it will lead to war and no one wants that.
Originally posted by Volk View PostWho am I hushing exactly?
Originally posted by Volk View PostAnd without Macedonians prapared to defend thier country they will lose it, simple as that. The albanians will not let us build in the capital of the country and the only people to do anything about it are a bunch of teens.
There is a struggle going on but it is not a military one, its the struggle with greece for our existance and its happening around the whole world.
Isn't it embarrassing just saying it out aloud. The Albanians not letting Macedonians do what they want in their own Macedonian homeland. Disgraceful.
The struggle is nothing to do with Greece nor Albanians. It is to do with Macedonians and Macedonians only. A revolution of the Macedonian mind can fix this all immediately.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostTo be fair, Macedonians did fight during WWII and the 'Greek' civil war.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostI was talking about Macedonians in the Republic so we can leave out the civil war. WWII should be clarified, can you highlight any examples of Macedonia's struggle for independence during WWII by the Macedonians in the Republic? I genuinely can't think of any but would love to read about it.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostGreece tells France, we can't veto now .... you do it for us. etc. etc.
Also don't forget, Greeks got 2 vote in EU. One for Greece and one for Cyprus.
For your admission to NATO, afaik Greece and France vetoes Macedonia.
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostWWII should be clarified, can you highlight any examples of Macedonia's struggle for independence during WWII by the Macedonians in the Republic? I genuinely can't think of any but would love to read about it.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostI was talking about Macedonians in the Republic so we can leave out the civil war. WWII should be clarified, can you highlight any examples of Macedonia's struggle for independence during WWII by the Macedonians in the Republic? I genuinely can't think of any but would love to read about it.
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Sydney, do you gave a link for that book? I certainly have an interest. I freely admit not having perfect knowledge of post WW2 RoM but cannot recall anything resembling a fight for liberation. Nothing dramatic comes to mind. If they were fighting for independence from the Bulgarians, why 50 years of being Serbia's doormat thereafter?
SoM, how much assistance from Vardar during the civil war has been documented?Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Julie I'm talking about any fighting from one government to another,we all know that individulas have suffered immensly at the hands of their enemies.Agean macedonia is a different thing alltogether where people suffered immensly.I was merely speaking of alexander the great being outnumbered 10 t01 & through herculean feat beat his enemies.Perhaps if we face an all out war the macedonian fighting spirit could probably come out.We need a herculean feat like alexander's to beat our enemies.At no point do i intend to say that the struggle by the aegean people is not worthy but to say that perhaps if we struggled as a whole country, against greece,bulgaria we might beat our enemies.Perhaps a revolution of some sort will bring it all back.Note i did not mean to offend you in regards to the ageans as everyone knows the immense sacrifices they went to fight their enemies.
Here's the link to that book you might have to zoom it. "Sudeni za Makedonija
"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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