Macedonian Orthodox Church - News & Updates

[Komita]

I am not asking you to give undue credit to anybody, do I sound like a subjective fool that believes everything in the world is Macedonian? Of course not. I know that Macedonia is not perfect, nor are the Macedonians, but I will not allow my anger towards some elements overtake my sense of Macedonism. You say that there is nothing to credit Macedonia for, are you ashamed of being Macedonian? I hope not, because if you are, you go against your own principles by continuing to identify as a Macedonian.

The MOC has more inspirational saints than the SOC, individuals like St Clement and St Kukuzel have done much for Eastern Christianity. Serbia's saints cannot compare to ours, nor should they. And no, your admiration for them does not equal to an admiration for the SOC's pathetic actions towards the MOC, it is your silence against the SOC's actions that troubles me.

At a time like this, Macedonia needs all of her sons and daughters, especially the strong and passionate, you are definetly one of these people, but you dedicate your energy to anything but Macedonia. You have given up already yet the fight isn't over, that is not characteristic of you.

Rather die then being ashamed I've never called myself swedish once in my life only macedonian.
Of course MPC saints have also being higly influental for our faith and their workds and deeds are truly inspirational, all I'm saying that there are saints from other orthodox churches that are influental and we dont have to reject that because of the church problem.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I agree with you, many deeds from Macedonian and other saints have been beneficial for the whole of Orthodoxy and not just for their respective people. That is why they are great and universal in many respects.

However, you have to agree with me, that the church problem exists because of the SOC, not the MOC. We want nothing more than any other OC has, and we shouldn't have to even be in this 'dispute', nor should we be answerable to anybody that is on equal footing with us.

[Big Bad Sven]

Go find a quote from me on any of those things that you've said. It is pointless engaging in discourse with you if you cannot keep to facts.

If you are responding to me, then respond to what I have written and my views, do not mix apples and oranges.

I am religious and of the Christian-Orthodox faith, and I am an adherent of and strong supporter of the Macedonian Orthodox Church.

Given the amount of hatred you have in you on just about anything other than the Serbian Orthodox Church, I could and would argue that my religious Orthodox Christian views are far more closely aligned with the word of God, than yours.

Why don't you read through my previous post again and see if you can find anywhere in it where I am espousing any hatred. In fact, all you will see is a lack of respect for those Churches which have gone so far away from the word of God and not just on the matter of negating the Macedonians.

As for the matter of negating the Macedonians, every year for the last 10 years we have Greek Bishops who have said there needs to be a war against the 'Skopjans' to 'take back Monastir (Bitola)'. We also have things like Greek bishops blessing the Turkish cannons before they are sent out to kill the Macedonians. Of course, this means very little to you, but to me, it represents a very big difference between what they are actually doing, and what they are saying in the churches during the liturgy.

These things are irrefutable, do not even bother to argue that the Greek and Serbian churches are NOT against the Macedonian Church and by implication, its' followers.

The only argument you have here, which you have not yet made, is the religious one, to turn the other cheek.

You will also find, everywhere in the world, that it is rather the exception to the rule for a Macedonian being able to go to a Greek Orthodox church for something like a wedding, whereas the Macedonian Orthodox Churches here and everywhere, accept all, without demanding that they are re-Christened and so on.

I see things clearly and as they are, the Ohrid Archbishopric was abolished in 1767 for the same reasons and purposes that the neighbouring Orthodox Churches today suppress the Macedonian Orthodox Church - it is their politics and their agenda, it is not the word of God.

Rogi, what about Prohor Pčinjski? The Macedonian land in Serbia that is also a important site to all Macedonians, in regards to ASNOM.

From 1990 to 2000 Vojeslav Sejsal banned any Macedonian from visiting the site. After 2000 regular Macedonians where allowed to go, but the SOC still did not allow Macedonian state delegations and Macedonian holly man where unable to go. The poor Macedonians had to build another monument for the ASNOM movement near Kumanovo to celebrate, as they where not allowed to go to Prohor Pčinjski.

Hardly good Christian behavior by the SOC hey?

[Big Bad Sven]

Macedonia will not kneel before Serbian gov’t

Nikola Gruevski stated Saturday stated that Macedonia withdrew its request to the Serbian government about granting access to the state delegation set to visit the monastery of Prohor Pčinjski, the usual site of Macedonian celebration of the August 2 national holiday of Ilinden.

“We waited three weeks for Serbian government’s reply that never came. Five days ahead of August 2 we decided to withdraw our request since we have estimated we had better stop begging and kneeling before the Serbian government and the SPC,” Gruevski said.

“It is humiliating that we have to wait until the very last day for their decision. The Macedonian people are watching television each night anticipating what would happen.”

He added that Macedonia should abandon all attempts to visit the monastery until the Macedonian and Serbia churches settle their dispute.

President Branko Crvenkovski noted that Gruevski’s move was hasty, adding that the visit to the place where the Anti-Fascist National Liberation Council of Macedonia (ASNOM) had it first meeting on August 2, 1944, should not have been canceled.

http://www.vmacedonianews.com/2007/07/macedonia-will-not-kneel-before-serbian.html

Macedonia gives up honoring Ilinden in Prohor Pcinjski monastery

Macedonia has withdrawn the request for Serbia's approval for sending a state delegation to visit Prohor Pcinjski monastery and mark the National Holiday Ilinden, Macedonian Foreign Ministry's spokeswoman Shpresa Jusufi told Makfax today.

She pointed out that the decision resulted from last night's reviewing of all elements relevant to the request. The Interior Ministry decided that "besides the Serbian Foreign Ministry's good will, certain circles have demonstrated a great deal of reluctance for this activity to take place".

"As long as necessary conditions are not in place, Macedonia won't request to be allowed to honor 2nd of August in Prohor Pcinjski", the spokeswoman added.

The last time a Macedonian state delegation paid a visit to the monastery in the frameworks of activities aimed at observation of the 2nd of August - National Holiday "Ilinden" was back in 2005.

http://www.vmacedonianews.com/2007/07/macedonia-gives-up-honoring-ilinden-in.html

[osiris]

rogi can you explain what you mean by belonging to the macedonian orthodox faith what are its peculiarities that make it differnet to the other othordox churches. as you know i am an athiest and not a lover of the 3 religions of abraham.

[Rogi]

Osiris, I wrote about being of the 'Christian Orthodox faith' and supporting the Macedonian Orthodox Church, not 'Macedonian Orthodox faith'.

There are no peculiarites, the faith and beliefs are the same, which is why I wrote Christian Orthodox faith.

We've had the religion discussion before and the only thing important is that we respect each others views and rights to our own personal views and beliefs, without forcing each others personal religious or non religious views and beliefs on one another.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Osiris, I am of the opinion that Orthodox Christianity is ingrained in Macedonian culture after 2,000 years. Woud you agree or disagree with that statement?

[osiris]

thanks rogi for correcting me and yes som it is deeply ingrained in our culture i am not sure if its 2000 years but its close enough. but do you think my non belief makes me less of a macedonian, and i am not picking a fight bro, i think you know that anyway, but as i have saaid i am not a christian and cant pretend to be for the sake of my culture surely faith in a god especially the christian one shoud not be taken lightly or faked.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The 2,000 year figure was given as it has been that long since Macedonia has had a Christian presence, although naturally, it became deeper ingrained with time and was not 'deep' as soon as it appeared.

Nobody should be forced to adhere to any religion, that's your choice mate, you know that. And no, of course I cannot look at you as any less Macedonian because you are not a follower of the Orthodox Christian faith. We have the non-religious type of Macedonians like yourself, and we have those that follow other Christian rites and Islam, I will never look at any of these Macedonians as anything less than myself. However, Macedonia has a largely Orthodox Christian history, and by preserving the faith we will preserve our Macedonian culture and identity. Therefore, I don't ever want to see Macedonia overwhelmed by another religion or non-religion, I strongly believe that Macedonia must stay Orthodox Christian, and I feel that this needs to be acknowledged by the non-Orthodox Macedonians. In this way tolerance and respect between all will prosper and trust can be developed based on this foundation, no group will feel their existence (in the religious sense) threatened, all will (as they are now anyway) be given the means to survive.

I have considered the question of wether being a Macedonian is more important or not than being an Orthodox Christian, I am not prepared to part with either. Other Macedonians, for whatever historical reasons, have adopted other faiths' over the last few centuries, although I would rather them all 'return to the flock', so to speak, I can live with that. Just because the Greek, Bulgar or Serb shares the same faith as myself, I cannot look at them as closer to me by ancestry, culture and language than a Protestant or Torbesh Macedonian, or you, my Pagan Maco

[osiris]

good answer som i respect and admire your reality. i am looking forward to the human rights dinner.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No problem mate, I am sure it will be a memorable Macedonian event.

[aleksandrov]

Rogi,

Indigen's questioning of your knowledge of the background to the long-running "Church dispute" (which is really just another warfront between those who want freedom and justice for the Macedonian people and those who seek to subjugate us as vassals to foreign interests) based on your age might appear as a low blow, but you brought it upon yourself by unfairly implying that his posts might be motivated by a general hostility to the Macedonian Orthodox Church.

The temporary micro-achievements of a group who managed the St. Nikola community in Melbourne for a little while are small picture issues compared to what Indigen is getting at. The virtues that temporary local leadership had over its predecessors are far outweighed by the long-term results of the coup they helped Petar conduct, not only in St. Nikola, but also in Macedonian Orthodox Communities like St. Iliya, which were once strong-holds of Macedonian patriotic activity. Who is running St. Nikola and St. Iliya today, thanks to the constitutional arrangements Petar managed to deceptively impose there? Where do those 'communities' stand today in relation to matters of critical national interest, such as the implementation of the Interim Accord with Greece and the Framework Agreement with the new Balisti? Are they members of the Macedonian Community Council of Victoria? If not, why not?

When you ask someone like Indigen whether he is an enemy of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, you might want to define what the Macedonian Orthodox Church is to you.

The reality is that, like the Macedonian state, the modern Macedonian Orthodox Church was founded by a popular movement of Macedonian freedom-loving rebels, but its institutional power was later usurped, at least partially, by vassals of foreign interests. Those usurpers were trained and educated by the same Serbian and/or Greek churches that systematically deny the indigenous Macedonian identity and accuse the founders of the modern Macedonian Orthodox church of being schismatics, non-believers, atheists, false priests, excommunicated .... It is no coincidence that those usurpers have negotiated and tried to implement a 'return' of our Church under Serbian church jurisdiction and abolition of its national identity, with Greek church blessing. It is also no coincidence that those usurpers are today labeling the Macedonian Orthodox communities in Australia that want to retain substantial self-governance as schismatics, non-believers, atheists, false priests, excommunicated .... You'll gain a much more fundamental understanding of this situation if you try to critically analyze the material Indigen has posted, without prejudice.

[Rogi]

Alexandrov,

My initial intention was not to delve into the dispute to which you refer, but rather to question the motive behind the posts; they are of course clearly one-sided, but they are not limited to the church dispute in Australia (which I wouldn't question, the angle there is clear), but rather they are about the entire Macedonian Orthodox Church and more than that, about religion itself (this is what I am questioning and for what I am seeking clarification).



If it is specifically about the church dispute in Australia with the intention of showcasing one side of the argument of the dispute, then so be it. That is fine.

If the intent however is one against religion itself, and that is clarified to be the case, then I will take offense to it as a Macedonian of the Christian faith.

In the same manner that I understand and respect those who do not subscribe to any religion, and I do not preach to them, I expect that those who are non-religious, to also leave me to my own beliefs without trying to denigrate them. Merely out of respect for one's right to religion and/or non-religion.

So it is that clarity that I was seeking.

Of course, until it became something about age/youth, etc.

[Bratot]

I think the discussion of this kind can be fruitful sometimes

I stand up by Rogi with my age but also support the healthy critics on the rotten Vladici.


A positive music to all soldats

YouTube - Soldat - 5nizza

[aleksandrov]

Rogi,

The material in the posts makes it pretty clear that the "Church dispute" in Australia is not an authentically Australian problem, but a manifestation of fundamental problems in the Macedonian Orthodox Church and Macedonian nation generally.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by one-sided. If you mean one-sided in favor of those who do not want to compromise the independence and identity of the Macedonian Orthodox Church as a church of the Macedonian Orthodox people, then I agree that it is one-sided and see no problem with that. If by one-sided you mean that it leaves out facts or opinions that may counter those presented, you might want to address that by presenting the facts and opinions that favor the other 'side', in relation to the Macedonian Orthodox Church generally, rather than just in relation to two competing local groups of volunteers in the relatively isolated MOCC St. Nikola in Melbourne, during a small period in the mid to late 1990s.

Questioning Indigen's support for the MOC as the Macedonian people's church is not something you would look back upon positively in future, I think.