Smilkovci Lake Killings

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, I am unsure how your point is relevant to my two questions aimed at Vangelovski's moronic statement.

Are you suggesting that Macedonians serve in foreign armies to accumulate 'real war' experience which can then be transferred to the Macedonian army?

No...it was in relation to your general view that those wars served absolutely no other purpose other than promoting US corporate interests.

[Phoenix]

From the wikipedia link above:

What a lying moron. He can't even bring himself to admit the truth about his own people and still looks to blame others.

On May 5, 2012, Republican politician, Joseph J. DioGuardi, who is of Albanian descent, stated:

“The Macedonian and Serbian governments have designed a well-orchestrated top secret plan, aiming to compromise and stain the freedom-loving Albanian people in front of the world public opinion. Albanians are facing brutal tortures which have taken ultra-nationalist connotations. The Albanian people are not terrorists."

He's a lying moron alright...the Macedonian and serbian governments are too incompetent to design anything remotely resembling a "well-orchestrated top secret plan" to scratch their arses, let alone the other crap he suggests...what a bullshit artist.

[Big Bad Sven]

To sum all up : this debate can go on forever with words.Pretty soon guns will start blazing again and Macedonia will then see who her REAL sons are - whether the ignorant,indifferent,poor,cowardly ovci in the homeland with the AK's in their hands;or the proud,broad-hearted,love-full patriots abroad with Macedonia in their hearts and Vegemite sandwich and Crown Lager in their hands,on their couches watching the footage from the bloodbath cheering 'Go Macedonia,go Macedonia' as if it was a football game.

My personal opinion is that it is not the role or responsibility of the diaspora to come to macedonia and pick up arms and fight s small conflict against a few radical shiptars, that is the job of the army and police which they appear to be doing a poor job of.

I think the role of the diaspora is to fight on another front, such as spreading the word of truth (through the internet, protests and if possible the media), lobbie groups that can influence western governments and even media opinion, and also to financially support strong macedonian people/movements/parties in macedonia.

Look at how influential the Irish Diaspora in New York/Boston were, they were able to provide the IRA with a shit load of money and support them. I doubt many Irish-Americans went back to Northern Ireland.
Or the shiptar diaspora, Soldier of Macedon posted a article of Joseph DioGuardi - people like him have done so much for the shiptar cause and he never had to go to kosovo and pick up a gun.
The armenian diaspora have been great in getting western countries to recognize the armenian genocide, yet they were never ridiculed or taunted by armenians living in armenia to come and fight the turks/azeries.
The macedonian diaspora is working hard, we have managed to get Canada and USA to recognize macedonia, and australian macedonians have won a tough battle for the right not to be called "slavic-macedonians". No offense, but it seems like the diaspora macedonians are more interested in macedonia then people from macedonia. In macedonia it is obvious the shiptars want macedonia more then the macedonians.

But going back on financially supporting macedonian patriotic/political parties in macedonia, i would love to do that but it seems like there is no one in macedonia that really wants to follow the macedonian cause, or not what it is. Thats the problem with macedonia, there is no real true patriotic/nationalist parties that want the best for macedonians.

[Phoenix]

My personal opinion is that it is not the role or responsibility of the diaspora to come to macedonia and pick up arms and fight s small conflict against a few radical shiptars, that is the job of the army and police which they appear to be doing a poor job of.

I think the role of the diaspora is to fight on another front, such as spreading the word of truth (through the internet, protests and if possible the media), lobbie groups that can influence western governments and even media opinion, and also to financially support strong macedonian people/movements/parties in macedonia.

Look at how influential the Irish Diaspora in New York/Boston were, they were able to provide the IRA with a shit load of money and support them. I doubt many Irish-Americans went back to Northern Ireland.
Or the shiptar diaspora, Soldier of Macedon posted a article of Joseph DioGuardi - people like him have done so much for the shiptar cause and he never had to go to kosovo and pick up a gun.
The armenian diaspora have been great in getting western countries to recognize the armenian genocide, yet they were never ridiculed or taunted by armenians living in armenia to come and fight the turks/azeries.
The macedonian diaspora is working hard, we have managed to get Canada and USA to recognize macedonia, and australian macedonians have won a tough battle for the right not to be called "slavic-macedonians". No offense, but it seems like the diaspora macedonians are more interested in macedonia then people from macedonia. In macedonia it is obvious the shiptars want macedonia more then the macedonians.

But going back on financially supporting macedonian patriotic/political parties in macedonia, i would love to do that but it seems like there is no one in macedonia that really wants to follow the macedonian cause, or not what it is. Thats the problem with macedonia, there is no real true patriotic/nationalist parties that want the best for macedonians.

Forget it BBS, unless you enjoy banging your head against a brick wall please continue...

I think you've summed it up quite nicely..."In macedonia it is obvious the shiptars want macedonia more then the macedonians".

In 2001, large sums of diaspora money made its way to Macedonia, enough to fund mercenaries, unfortunately a gutless Macedonian leadership failed to capitalise on this goodwill and prefered to capitulate before the terrorists...in any other dignified nation on this planet, this act alone would have lead to the political elite decorating the lamp poles and trees along the boulevards leading to the capital, they'd be hanging by their nuts, swinging in the Spring breeze like human metronomes...that's the power of the people, we've seen it decade after decade in every corner of this planet but in Macedonia it was a small rowdy crowd on a couple of nights and then nothing...

More people came out waving their fuckin' ventilators after a regional basketball failure...go figure.

[Volk]

Forget it BBS, unless you enjoy banging your head against a brick wall please continue...

I think you've summed it up quite nicely..."In macedonia it is obvious the shiptars want macedonia more then the macedonians".

In 2001, large sums of diaspora money made its way to Macedonia, enough to fund mercenaries, unfortunately a gutless Macedonian leadership failed to capitalise on this goodwill and prefered to capitulate before the terrorists...in any other dignified nation on this planet, this act alone would have lead to the political elite decorating the lamp poles and trees along the boulevards leading to the capital, they'd be hanging by their nuts, swinging in the Spring breeze like human metronomes...that's the power of the people, we've seen it decade after decade in every corner of this planet but in Macedonia it was a small rowdy crowd on a couple of nights and then nothing...

More people came out waving their fuckin' ventilators after a regional basketball failure...go figure.

I completely disagree, Macedonians are willing to defend their nation as they were in 2001. The problem is in the leadership of the country.

Do you forget the government in 2001? A bulgar traitor that planned to divide the country with bulgaria?

The people are willing to defend, however our whole political leadership are paid spies for foreign powers

[Phoenix]

I completely disagree, Macedonians are willing to defend their nation as they were in 2001. The problem is in the leadership of the country.

Do you forget the government in 2001? A bulgar traitor that planned to divide the country with bulgaria?

The people are willing to defend, however our whole political leadership are paid spies for foreign powers

I agree that the political will is hopelessly missing but there's a real lack of will amongst many Macedonians as well, too many people who find it easier to bury their heads in the sand or too willing to blame someone else.

In most nations when the citizens are confronted by such tyranny, the population rises up to take matters in their own hands, do you really think that fat little bulgar kopile would have stayed in 'town' if the people were baying for his blood...?

[Risto the Great]

I completely disagree, Macedonians are willing to defend their nation as they were in 2001. The problem is in the leadership of the country.

I think you might know this better than me. But it has to be said that 11 years have passed since 2001 and the Macedonian defeat is becoming clearer every day. Macedonians will have to accept that they are to blame. That they are simply incapable sheep who yearn for better times but do nothing about changing the leadership of their country.

I have chatted with many moronic (Ro)Macedonians who still believe DPmNE are Pro-Macedonian and the only option for Macedonians. Disgraceful "sheepism" if you ask me.

The people are willing to defend, however our whole political leadership are paid spies for foreign powers

Wow, I think I'll bite. How about the political leadership being made up of peasants who realise that by being whores for other nations, they might enjoy some monetary gain that helps distinguish them from the sheep herders in a mild manner. I won't call them spies. I will call them opportunistic peasants. But we're not too far apart on this I suppose. Although being a "spy" sounds more glamourous than what they are.

[Vangelovski]

That's interesting about it's night vision properties.

I think multicam might be adapted into a uniquely Australian design after field trials undertaken by Aus SAS patrols in Afghanistan, they seem to be forever honing and modifying equipment and procedures that slowly filter down throughout the ADF.

Yeah, I think multicam (or a modified version of it) is the next big for the ADF. I've already read a few things (can't remember where now) that it meets Australian conditions much better than Auscam and its various iterations. Definitely something to look out for.

Here's what the ADF shop is selling - but I don't think this is the coated version. When I got mine (which I use for hunting) they told me that it was coated...apparently...but after looking at this, I'm beginning to wonder because I paid the same amount.

http://www.militaryshop.com.au/catalogue/displayDecProduct/id/12752.html

Its priced relatively well.

[DraganOfStip]

Dragan, maybe you should vote for a new government to get Macedonia out of this mess. But I forget, you don't vote.

Greece has similar unemployment rates now. They protest if their salads don't have enough vinegar.

I am certainly not mocking your poverty. I am however astounded at what level of deprivation RoMacedonians are willing to put up with before they get fed up and rise as one.

RtG,my post about mocking our poverty was aimed at Vangelovski,not you.
The guy thinks that if he doesn't have to worry over there for paying his bills and getting food to the table he has the right to spit on his fellow countrymen back home because they have to work round the clock for a shitty wage.How pathetic.

[Phoenix]

Yeah, I think multicam (or a modified version of it) is the next big for the ADF. I've already read a few things (can't remember where now) that it meets Australian conditions much better than Auscam and its various iterations. Definitely something to look out for.

Here's what the ADF shop is selling - but I don't think this is the coated version. When I got mine (which I use for hunting) they told me that it was coated...apparently...but after looking at this, I'm beginning to wonder because I paid the same amount.

http://www.militaryshop.com.au/catalogue/displayDecProduct/id/12752.html

Its priced relatively well.

Interesting site, thanks for the link.

[DraganOfStip]

Again, that's nowhere near as bad as most people across the world who still manage to stand up for their rights, including our own forefathers. And what has your so-called "poverty" got to do with your ability to stand up for your own rights anyway? Why does it stop you and no other people on the face of the planet?

I'm not mocking your so-called poverty, I'm mocking your BS excuses for doing nothing.

And yes, I have gone hungry many times in my life. That did not destroy my resolve, it only made it stronger - the usual response in normal human beings.

Hmmm,my 'so-called' poverty can prevent me in many ways dude.Like the fact that if I fail to show to work because of the 'great patriotic rights protests' I could lose my job,and I have a kid to feed.I'm not wasting my time in cafe's for meaningless chit-chat,I have to provide,I have bills to pay as well.
Macedonians here love their country no matter what you think.But making ends meet is more important to them than rallying in vain - we all know protests wouldn't accomplish anything.What did Macedonians get from the protests?And what did shiptars get from Friday's jihadist protest?Nothing my good man,the judicial process for this case will go on no matter how many people rally for whatsoever cause.So what was the point anyway?Maybe you guys see things differently over there,but here we're faced with an ongoing struggle for pure survival each day.
Tell me,why did you (or your parents,regardless) emigrate to Australia if you loved your country so much?Be honest with me.And to answer your question you must first tell me what are all these problems you have in Australia nowadays?Are you unemployed?Do you work for a shitty wage?Do you work Sundays and national holidays as well?Do you need me to go fight for YOUR country Australia against East Timor with a population of little over than one million people which as you state is a great threat for your country?Just ask yourself what kind of Macedonian are you when you're prepared to go to war for Australia rather than your own motherland.Very patriotic character indeed.
And don't give me the Palestinians BS.Palestinians had a lot of help from the surrounding Arabic hostile neighbors of Israel:funding,weapons,food..you name it.Vietnamese wouldn't be able to defeat the world's greatest superpower without the help from the Soviet Union,Talibans wouldn't have pushed Soviets out of their country without CIA's involvement and arming those terrorists with up-to-date anti-aircraft,anti-tank missiles etc.So none of those people were able to achieve their aim by themselves,as much as you want to show otherwise.Macedonian security forces in 2001 were better equipped and in greater number than those shiptar terrorists,and if they had their hands untied no shiptar bastard would have remained on Macedonian soil after that.It's the leadership in Macedonia that fucked up the conflict,acting like obedient puppies whenever NATO and EU picked up the red phone.So it's not that Macedonian people didn't go to war against the shiptars,don't blame them for the defeat.NATO and EU didn't allow them to win,it's really that simple.

[Komita]

"TOLERANCE AND APATHY ARE THE LAST VIRTUES OF A DYING SOCIETY" - Plato

[Jankovska]

Hi Jankovska, been a little while since we've exchanged words, hope all is well In your opinion, do you think the Macedonian army (supplemented as required by local volunteer units like in 2001) is capable of defeating a terrorist threat from Albanian extremists without the physical assistance of Macedonians outside of Macedonia?

Hey SoM, it's been a while, good to be back. Yes, I firmly believe our forces, the Macedonian Police and then the Army have a great capacity to crash any conflicts and in no time. However the problem we are facing is not if they can but more importantly if they will. The Army, Police and volunteers who were on the front lines in 2011 were simply betrayed,they fought a war that was already 'lost; because our spineless government left them there and followed every single order that came from America. Remember Arachinovo? The moment we were going to clean the place up was when we were told to back off and now it's the biggest crime spot in Macedonia. The Albanian terrorists were supported by everyone and our gov gave in simply and left our boys and girls to deal with it. All the ones that gave their lifes gave them for nothing, our gov went in and signed everyones life away.

Yes we can win any conflict/war with the Albanian terrorists but if the rules are fair and if we are let to sort it out ourselves. I am talking from every day life, people are not willing to do it because they think it's all given away and that they will die for nothing. The Macedonian people have one chance to hold on to what they have but the very first thing is not to go into conflict with the Albanians but to raise themselves against the everlasting VMRO/SDSM who have sold us out to the devil.

WE can all go and fight for the country but even if we all went if we let someone else dictate the rules we will not win.

The Macedonian people must take control of their country and simply overturn the gov. Until that happens I can only say GOD HELP US!

[DraganOfStip]

Hey SoM, it's been a while, good to be back. Yes, I firmly believe our forces, the Macedonian Police and then the Army have a great capacity to crash any conflicts and in no time. However the problem we are facing is not if they can but more importantly if they will. The Army, Police and volunteers who were on the front lines in 2011 were simply betrayed,they fought a war that was already 'lost; because our spineless government left them there and followed every single order that came from America. Remember Arachinovo? The moment we were going to clean the place up was when we were told to back off and now it's the biggest crime spot in Macedonia. The Albanian terrorists were supported by everyone and our gov gave in simply and left our boys and girls to deal with it. All the ones that gave their lifes gave them for nothing, our gov went in and signed everyones life away.

Yes we can win any conflict/war with the Albanian terrorists but if the rules are fair and if we are let to sort it out ourselves. I am talking from every day life, people are not willing to do it because they think it's all given away and that they will die for nothing. The Macedonian people have one chance to hold on to what they have but the very first thing is not to go into conflict with the Albanians but to raise themselves against the everlasting VMRO/SDSM who have sold us out to the devil.

WE can all go and fight for the country but even if we all went if we let someone else dictate the rules we will not win.

The Macedonian people must take control of their country and simply overturn the gov. Until that happens I can only say GOD HELP US!

By far the best post on this matter.Very well summed.Totally agree.

[Vangelovski]

Hmmm,my 'so-called' poverty can prevent me in many ways dude.Like the fact that if I fail to show to work because of the 'great patriotic rights protests' I could lose my job,and I have a kid to feed.I'm not wasting my time in cafe's for meaningless chit-chat,I have to provide,I have bills to pay as well.
Macedonians here love their country no matter what you think.But making ends meet is more important to them than rallying in vain - we all know protests wouldn't accomplish anything.What did Macedonians get from the protests?And what did shiptars get from Friday's jihadist protest?Nothing my good man,the judicial process for this case will go on no matter how many people rally for whatsoever cause.So what was the point anyway?Maybe you guys see things differently over there,but here we're faced with an ongoing struggle for pure survival each day.
Tell me,why did you (or your parents,regardless) emigrate to Australia if you loved your country so much?Be honest with me.And to answer your question you must first tell me what are all these problems you have in Australia nowadays?Are you unemployed?Do you work for a shitty wage?Do you work Sundays and national holidays as well?Do you need me to go fight for YOUR country Australia against East Timor with a population of little over than one million people which as you state is a great threat for your country?Just ask yourself what kind of Macedonian are you when you're prepared to go to war for Australia rather than your own motherland.Very patriotic character indeed.
And don't give me the Palestinians BS.Palestinians had a lot of help from the surrounding Arabic hostile neighbors of Israel:funding,weapons,food..you name it.Vietnamese wouldn't be able to defeat the world's greatest superpower without the help from the Soviet Union,Talibans wouldn't have pushed Soviets out of their country without CIA's involvement and arming those terrorists with up-to-date anti-aircraft,anti-tank missiles etc.So none of those people were able to achieve their aim by themselves,as much as you want to show otherwise.Macedonian security forces in 2001 were better equipped and in greater number than those shiptar terrorists,and if they had their hands untied no shiptar bastard would have remained on Macedonian soil after that.It's the leadership in Macedonia that fucked up the conflict,acting like obedient puppies whenever NATO and EU picked up the red phone.So it's not that Macedonian people didn't go to war against the shiptars,don't blame them for the defeat.NATO and EU didn't allow them to win,it's really that simple.

YOU and every other Macedonian in Macedonia are responsible for YOURSELVES. No one owes you anything. Stop making excuses and do YOUR job.