Russia, Ukraine and the West

[Carlin]

The Crimean Bridge has been attacked. Both the automobile and railway branches have been cut.

One must be a fool to believe the Crimea bridge explosion was done by Ukraine alone.

We're on the edge.

[Vangelovski]

Did you lose count after all your fingers were severed? I don't think a single person has said that. THAT is what I was referring to. Saying there is misinformation etc. after that is irrelevant. You must be blissfully unaware that it was a sweeping statement aimed at probably everyone on this thread.

Here’s a little snippet:

the MSM giants when they sold their arses to the highest political bidder, the MSM traded investigative journalism for the blind political activism of their new masters.

Even today and from the outset of the Ukrainian conflict the MSM narrative has been the same mash-up of Western psychological operations against Russia…

You scratch the surface of what you hear on the news, and it ends up actually being the opposite of what is being said. I'm not reading it like you put it at the moment

In fact, Putin is so desperate that he blew up his own gas pipelines...if you believe the MSM whores.

There is no trusted media, the real news comes from people on the ground using other mediums besides the MSM.

I believe MSM is completely full of shit and have repeatedly aligned their interests with those of the corporations who make it worth their while.

Sounds like most people posting in this thread think the “MSM” is “COMPLETELY full of shit”.

I love a nuanced discussion.

Really? I’ve never seen you actually have one. It’s the just one liners.

Russians believe these lands are Russian. The rest of the world doesn't believe them.

I agree that the Russians genuinely believe those are Russian territories. But there is the historical record. That tells us otherwise. Happy to have that discussion, if you can manage more than one line on it.

How did you become the final arbiter?

Did I say I was? I think you forget that I don’t make statements that I can’t back up or haven’t spent a long time researching and thinking about. I would say that a good arbiter, if not the final one, in this case would be that historical record I mentioned and some basic principles like national sovereignty.

you called it ridiculous and said you lost count of the people who said everything in the media is a lie.

I actually called it a BIT ridiculous. I acknowledged all the problems with misinformation, propaganda etc but was making the point that the basic facts are there and that its not “completely full of shit” as you put it.

I would say much of this is grey.

We’ve had this discussion before and I actually do agree. But there are some basic principles, facts, truths that are black and white. Their application may not always be easy or straight-forward, but that doesn’t mean those principles or truths are not black and white.

In this instance, I think (you clearly disagree) that its pretty black and white that the Ukrainians are a sovereign people and Russia is morally wrong in its invasion.

[Risto the Great]

This thread is getting interesting, but also a bit ridiculous tbh.

Your first post here for a while. And you bequeathed an opinion about its ridiculous nature. Honestly, it was kind of an autistic spasm. Maybe some chocolate and flowers first, KY later.

Lets start with the ridiculous. A lot of you are creating an impossible standard for discovering basic facts. I've lost count of how many times people have said everything in the media is a lie.

Did you lose count after all your fingers were severed? I don't think a single person has said that. THAT is what I was referring to. Saying there is misinformation etc. after that is irrelevant. You must be blissfully unaware that it was a sweeping statement aimed at probably everyone on this thread.

You're making a false comparison there. The Donbas and Crimea aren't Russian lands, just like Egej isn't Greek land. The equivalent comparison would be if Albania invaded Macedonia to intervene on behalf of "its" minority.

I love a nuanced discussion. We're not having one right now. Russians believe these lands are Russian. The rest of the world doesn't believe them. Macedonians believe Egej is Macedonian. The rest of the world doesn't believe them. How did you become the final arbiter? I like that kind of (nuanced) bravado, but how though?

I thought at you're age you might be able to have a bit more of a nuanced discussion, but clearly you're still in internet rant mode.

I don't really know what age has to do with anything. Are you suggesting that being ten years older than you should make me ready to be a wise old man who accepts that people swinging their dicks are a fact of life and should be ignored? I have a mind to throw my walking frame at you.

But as a reminder, when you cocked your cowboy hat and kicked open the saloon doors on this thread with your thumbs resting near your pistols - you called it ridiculous and said you lost count of the people who said everything in the media is a lie. I don't think you're a nasty little man. I just think you lack the nuance you spoke of above.

I would say much of this is grey. Whilst we were chatting today, the Crimean bridge has been bombed. I hope things don't get worse but fear they will.

[Vangelovski]

I am yet to see clear evidence of the Ukrainians making a solid counteroffensive in which they can retake lost territory and hold it...their recent 'gains' were in strategically insignificant territories that were lightly defended. Those rural towns/villages were retaken by the Ukrainians by an advantage of 10:1 Ukrainian forces V Russian defenders at LEAST.
That's an unsustainable manpower effort and if anything is showing the dire straights of the Ukrainian armed forces because that manpower was redirected from other places on the frontline at a time when the Russians are strategically redeploying...it's the smallest of flashes in a very big pan.

The Russian retreat from the 'northern' front was not a strategic retreat or some sort of completion of their objectives. That's simply Russian propaganda. They just don't have the capacity to fight along such a large stretch of territory. So that was a sustained Ukrainian victory. You're right that time will tell whether Ukrainian counter attacks in Donbas and Kherson are ultimately successful. But I think they will be. I do think Russia will be forced out of the whole of Ukraine (Donbas and Crimea), give or take a few hundred square km here and there.

I think your perception is based on an idealogical hatred of all things that link modern Russia with the Soviet Union.
Most here see the meddling from the Euro/Atlantic/Anglo-sphere powers or the many nuances of grey that exist between the black and the white of your traditional political myopia

The only "black or white" call I made is that I genuinely support the Ukrainians because they are a sovereign people. Simply repeating RtG's famous "black and white" strawman attack doesn't make it true. As to everything else, this is what I actually said:

I'll leave all the motivations to speculation.

You're fucking dreaming mate...MSM, hook line and sinker

That's your view. Mine is different. I think the Russian military is a sham and I've thought this for at least 2 decades. Happy to discuss in more depth, but probably won't respond to one line baits.

[Phoenix]

...This thread is getting interesting, but also a bit ridiculous tbh.

Lets start with the ridiculous. A lot of you are creating an impossible standard for discovering basic facts. I've lost count of how many times people have said everything in the media is a lie. Sure, there is a lot of misinformation, disinformation, ideologically driven narratives and plain old propaganda. But the basic facts are there.

I'm not sure that anybody specifically made the claim that "everything in the media is a lie".
Secondly, there has always been the questioning of, as you put it - the "misinformation, disinformation, ideologically driven narratives and plain old propaganda" in the MSM...it seems this is the predominant business model of the MSM today.

...For example, there is a war going on in Ukraine. If everything were a lie, then we couldn't even trust that a war was actually happening.

I think you're being a bit ridiculous here...tbh...or do we step back a little and apply the old tree falling in the forest philosophical quandary into the mix and suggest that because none of us are on the front line that there is no proof of a war at all.
This is the very point of what the MSM did until recently, go to the front line and report the facts as they observe them, this is what is missing and what many commenting here on this thread are riled up about, it's happening in reporting the war, it happened during covid, it is happing in the climate change debate and a myriad of social and cultural movements going on today.

This thread has more to do with the battle against - "misinformation, disinformation, ideologically driven narratives and plain old propaganda" than any notion that people here have their heads buried in the sand or have lost their sense of reality.

...I think the basic facts that we can accept are that there is a war in Ukraine, Russia invaded and now the Ukrainians are forcing them back. I'll leave all the motivations to speculation.

I am yet to see clear evidence of the Ukrainians making a solid counteroffensive in which they can retake lost territory and hold it...their recent 'gains' were in strategically insignificant territories that were lightly defended. Those rural towns/villages were retaken by the Ukrainians by an advantage of 10:1 Ukrainian forces V Russian defenders at LEAST.
That's an unsustainable manpower effort and if anything is showing the dire straights of the Ukrainian armed forces because that manpower was redirected from other places on the frontline at a time when the Russians are strategically redeploying...it's the smallest of flashes in a very big pan.

...Now for the interesting. I also see a lot of pro-Russian sentiment here. But I disagree with it.

I think your perception is based on an idealogical hatred of all things that link modern Russia with the Soviet Union.
Most here see the meddling from the Euro/Atlantic/Anglo-sphere powers or the many nuances of grey that exist between the black and the white of your traditional political myopia

...I support Ukraine in its war against Russia on principle. The Ukrainians are a sovereign people. They have an independent state. Russia has no business invading, which it clearly did in 2014 and then extended that invasion earlier this year. I don't care about their reasons.

...I also support the West arming and training the Ukrainian military. In fact, I would support Western armed forces going into direct combat with the Russian army if it was necessary to remove them from Ukraine. The reason for this is both a) as above, the Ukrainians are a sovereign people and b) Russia is an authoritarian state still heavily Marxist. I have no time for any of that. I'd like to see them put in their place.

Would you be prepared to take up arms on behalf of Ukraine or would you be happy to send your children to fight your inherent hatred of anything Russian, or that this fucking mess escalates to the point of WWIII

...But I'm fairly confident that with Western arms and training Ukraine will liberate its territory. The Russians never really had the capability of fighting against an adversary the size of Ukraine. Few, if any, modern militaries do.

You're fucking dreaming mate...MSM, hook line and sinker

[Vangelovski]

The last time I personally inspected Russia's arsenal and secret weapons technology, and compared it with Ukraine's, it looked like Russia was better equipped. But ok. You clearly win.

I offered my opinion, you can rub it in my face if Ukraine loses the fight. But Ukraine is winning for now. And its not just because they have better weapons.

So Russia intervened on behalf of a Russian minority in a neighbouring state and seeks to add those regions to Russia itself. Of course we, as Macedonians would be horrified with this and should oppose any thought of challenges to a nation's sovereignty and indeed land.

You're making a false comparison there. The Donbas and Crimea aren't Russian lands, just like Egej isn't Greek land. The equivalent comparison would be if Albania invaded Macedonia to intervene on behalf of "its" minority.

Well, maybe Ukraine should have thought about that when they were killing their ethnic Russians over the last 8 years.

I've read lots of allegations but never seen any real evidence. Just like I've read thousands of allegations of Macedonia killing and discriminating against Albanians and "Bulgarians". Even if it were true, Russia has no claim to Ukrainian territory. Just the same as Greece or Albania or Bulgaria do not have a claim to Macedonian territory.

Surely in the Vangelovski world of infinite black and white there is room for looking at things less simplistically.

Some things are just black and white. But if you read my comments you might see that I'm not claiming everything is black and white. Why do I get the feeling that you just like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing?

Honestly, I'm not sure why you seek to reject a very obvious truth about MSM misinformation. Am I to assume you believe all the "Fact Checkers"? You know, like the ones used on Facebook who were taken to court and finally admitted they weren't facts, but merely (convenient) opinions?

If i believe you, I must believe everything I read on MSM.

This is what I actually said:

Sure, there is a lot of misinformation, disinformation, ideologically driven narratives and plain old propaganda.

Not sure why I even replied to that particular rant...

In any case, I hope you don't completely melt down with the following admissions on my part:

I believe a war is happening.
I believe covid exists.
I believe MSM is completely full of shit and have repeatedly aligned their interests with those of the corporations who make it worth their while.

I know it gets grey sometimes, but maybe adjust the contrast a little.

I really don't know why you have to disagree with me even when we agree. It gets tired. I thought at you're age you might be able to have a bit more of a nuanced discussion, but clearly you're still in internet rant mode.

[Risto the Great]

No, I meant Ukraine.

The last time I personally inspected Russia's arsenal and secret weapons technology, and compared it with Ukraine's, it looked like Russia was better equipped. But ok. You clearly win.

I don't really care what the US has accused Russia of (or vice versa). I am accusing Russia of being wrong in relation to its invasion of Ukraine, specifically because this is the thread about Russia and the Ukraine. But I do remember that Ukraine supplied Macedonia with the bulk of its weapons in 2001. I don't remember Russia (or the US for that matter) providing anything.

I remember USA providing assistance in Macedonia .... to the Albanian terrorists.

So Russia intervened on behalf of a Russian minority in a neighbouring state and seeks to add those regions to Russia itself. Of course we, as Macedonians would be horrified with this and should oppose any thought of challenges to a nation's sovereignty and indeed land. The Minsk agreements were violated. We can compare them to the pathetic Badinter model in Macedonia. What is stopping Macedonia from abandoning the Ohrid agreement? We in the diaspora kind of like that idea. Perhaps reprisal from USA (and Albania) are a disincentive? Well, maybe Ukraine should have thought about that when they were killing their ethnic Russians over the last 8 years.

But we could also compare what is happening in Ukraine with the Macedonian minority in Greece. I know a bit about them. It would have been great if Macedonians came over to help them a little back in bad old days. Might have been a very different region nowadays.

Surely in the Vangelovski world of infinite black and white there is room for looking at things less simplistically. For example, the IMF support (=loans) to Ukraine and conditional privatisation of lands now in the hands of USA corporations makes things look less simple.

But grey is the new black.

Really? If I believed the comments on this thread, I can't trust there is a war on. Everything is fake news and all footage and photos are just deep fakes. I haven't seen any inflatable tanks in dramatised videos. But if there are, maybe the war isn't really happening after all?

Honestly, I'm not sure why you seek to reject a very obvious truth about MSM misinformation. Am I to assume you believe all the "Fact Checkers"? You know, like the ones used on Facebook who were taken to court and finally admitted they weren't facts, but merely (convenient) opinions?

If i believe you, I must believe everything I read on MSM. In any case, I hope you don't completely melt down with the following admissions on my part:

I believe a war is happening.
I believe covid exists.
I believe MSM is completely full of shit and have repeatedly aligned their interests with those of the corporations who make it worth their while.

I know it gets grey sometimes, but maybe adjust the contrast a little.

[Carlin]

Latest: Elon Musk's Starlink system is down over the front lines of Ukraine

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamKinzinger/status/1578421576428490752

[Carlin]

Sentinel-1 data suggests that Russia has a new toy which has tested/activated somewhere near Rostov-on-Don

https://mobile.twitter.com/PutinIsAVirus/status/1419094383572443137

[Karposh]

I was just as stunned as everyone else when I heard the news that Russia invaded Ukraine earlier this year. I honestly thought that the Russians wouldn't go ahead and invade Ukraine and that they were only bluffing to prevent them from joining NATO at the time. The Ukrainians did indeed help out Macedonia in our fight against the Albanians and that's why the invasion didn't sit well with me at the time. But there's a lot more going on here than many realise.

The USA is not an innocent party in all this and many commentators that I've listened to, the majority of them American, are openly saying that the US has been goading Russia into doing this for about a decade now. Many are saying that this is an Energy War. Ever since the news of the Nord Stream pipelines, the US has gone on the offensive to kill off the pipelines, one way or another. Naturally, the US wants Europe to be buying their gas and oil and not Putin's. The Ukrainians are the unfortunate victims here and the US is not the concerned bystander they would like the world to believe who is heroically coming to their aid. The current narrative says that they are but even their own citizens are calling bullshit on this narrative. This is where the state-sponsored media comes into play and regurgitates what they've been told to repeat. This make the media a bunch of cheap-ass kurvi in my eyes who refuse to do their jobs properly and exercise some journalistic integrity.

That T-shirt wearing puppet the US installed through George Soros' colour revolution is all part of it. People have joined the dots and are realising just how deep the USA's involvement is in Ukraine. The Biden's have a lot to answer for with their business dealings and involvement with the corrupt Ukrainian government. No one in the media is touching this and it will only get traction once the Republicans take over in November.

Speaking of the T-Shirt boy president, he was ready to accept a peace deal back in April and the West, in a panic, quickly sent special envoy Boris Johnson to prevent a signing of any peace deal. Continue the war was his message. Don't sign for peace. The West will pour in weapons and are willing to fight for Ukraine to the last Ukrainian.

[Vangelovski]

You meant to write USA, not Ukraine?

No, I meant Ukraine.

Personally, I enjoy the hypocrisy of USA accusing Russia of doing something bad. Particularly because, well, Macedonia.

I don't really care what the US has accused Russia of (or vice versa). I am accusing Russia of being wrong in relation to its invasion of Ukraine, specifically because this is the thread about Russia and the Ukraine. But I do remember that Ukraine supplied Macedonia with the bulk of its weapons in 2001. I don't remember Russia (or the US for that matter) providing anything.

Knowing there is a war on is hardly news. Inflatable tanks in dramatised videos is less so.

Really? If I believed the comments on this thread, I can't trust there is a war on. Everything is fake news and all footage and photos are just deep fakes. I haven't seen any inflatable tanks in dramatised videos. But if there are, maybe the war isn't really happening after all?

[Liberator of Makedonija]

This is an interesting discussion. I only wish this level of effort and passion were put into actual Macedonian threads.

[YuriB]

I completely second Vangelovski (I could not have said this any better). I've also been driven to this chat because of the interesting, as you put it, direction.

I was rather puzzled, to be honest, on the sublime support on this Russia and Putin. I feel that Macedonians have had rather negative experiences with a similar playbook taking place in Tetovo just 20 years ago (perhaps still on?). If Russia gets to do this then why not Albania? Isn't there at least some self-preservation empathy, if not the principles mentioned?

I'll admit to being a bit provocative on calling the Russian army a farce but I was merely fishing for a confirmation of the aforementioned pro-Russia sentiment. It's rather easy to selective read news to confirm a preferred outcome; the big question is why would one prefer such an outcome..?

[Risto the Great]

You meant to write USA, not Ukraine?

Personally, I enjoy the hypocrisy of USA accusing Russia of doing something bad. Particularly because, well, Macedonia.

I like Americans but they have lost their nation to it's own secretive organisations and NGOs. Covid has proven how corrupt msm is. Knowing there is a war on is hardly news. Inflatable tanks in dramatised videos is less so.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski here, once participant now random forum follower.

This thread is getting interesting, but also a bit ridiculous tbh.

Lets start with the ridiculous. A lot of you are creating an impossible standard for discovering basic facts. I've lost count of how many times people have said everything in the media is a lie. Sure, there is a lot of misinformation, disinformation, ideologically driven narratives and plain old propaganda. But the basic facts are there. For example, there is a war going on in Ukraine. If everything were a lie, then we couldn't even trust that a war was actually happening.

I think the basic facts that we can accept are that there is a war in Ukraine, Russia invaded and now the Ukrainians are forcing them back. I'll leave all the motivations to speculation.

Now for the interesting. I also see a lot of pro-Russian sentiment here. But I disagree with it.

I support Ukraine in its war against Russia on principle. The Ukrainians are a sovereign people. They have an independent state. Russia has no business invading, which it clearly did in 2014 and then extended that invasion earlier this year. I don't care about their reasons.

I also support the West arming and training the Ukrainian military. In fact, I would support Western armed forces going into direct combat with the Russian army if it was necessary to remove them from Ukraine. The reason for this is both a) as above, the Ukrainians are a sovereign people and b) Russia is an authoritarian state still heavily Marxist. I have no time for any of that. I'd like to see them put in their place.

But I'm fairly confident that with Western arms and training Ukraine will liberate its territory. The Russians never really had the capability of fighting against an adversary the size of Ukraine. Few, if any, modern militaries do.