Originally posted by Amphipolis
View Post
Modern Turkey: Ottomanism vs Secularism
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by Carlin15 View PostWhat's the latest on Oruc Reis?
Click on Past Track and zoom out.
It shows that it moved as west as the middle of Rhodes and as South as Crete is.
Comment
-
-
Well done to Cavusoglu. That is the way a Minister of Foreign Affairs should defend their country. Macedonia doesn't have a Causovski. It has an Osmani instead, who couldn't care less about the country and is willing to placate both Greeks and Bulgars at the expense of Macedonians, the titular ethnic group of Macedonia.
https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/spar...nference-45941
Sparks fly at Turkish and Greek ministers' press conference
The foreign ministers of Greece and Turkey traded barbs on a wide range of issues during an unexpectedly volatile press conference at the end of their first meeting in over a year. The meeting on Wednesday between Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu and his Greek counterpart Nikos Dendias was ostensibly designed to show the two uneasy NATO neighbours trying to put aside their differences after a year of complex disputes. The press conference opened with conciliatory remarks from Cavusoglu in which he praised "the very positive dialogue" they just held in the Turkish capital.
He said that disputes with Greece can be resolved through constructive dialogue and that fait accompli and provocative rhetoric should be avoided in bilateral relations. But Dendias used his opening remarks to rattle off a series of accusations about Turkey from the eastern Mediterranean to the migrants issue. "Greece's position is clear and this is not the first time you have heard it," Dendias told Cavusoglu during a particularly heated moment in the 35-minute press conference.
"If you heavily accuse my country and people before the press, I have to be in a position to respond to that," Cavusoglu replied. "If you want to continue our tensions, we can," Cavusoglu said. "You don't allow the Turkish minority (in Greece) to call themselves Turkish. You call them Muslims," Cavusoglu said. "If they call themselves Turkish, they are Turkish – you have to recognise this."
He noted that Ankara is capable of protecting the rights of both Turkey and Turkish Cypriots in the eastern Mediterranean. Dendias said his country and Turkey can create a positive agenda in the field of economy. Dendias did offer Cavusoglu an invitation to visit him in Athens and the two ministers walked away from their respective lecterns after exchanging a few pleasantries and smiles.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
Comment
-
-
Actually the Muslim minority of Western Thrace is not just recognized as "Muslim" by Greece, but by the Treaty of Lausanne. Furthermore, it is not just recognized as Muslim, but it is. It is NOT Turkish, it includes Turkish, Bulgarian (Pomak) and Roma people.
Still, according to the Treaty all these people are under the protection of Turkey and receive Turkish education. Also, to Greece's displeasure, they have shown a certain anti-Greek and pro-Muslim unity on several occasions, most notably in European Elections, though it's hard to estimate the percentage of this unity.
The Greek political establishment shows tolerance and co-operation with them and that includes all parties, except for far right. That means that 2, 3 or 4 of them are elected in the Parliament through the mainstream parties.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Amphipolis View PostActually the Muslim minority of Western Thrace is not just recognized as "Muslim" by Greece, but by the Treaty of Lausanne.......It is NOT Turkish, it includes Turkish, Bulgarian (Pomak) and Roma people.
......to Greece's displeasure, they have shown a certain anti-Greek and pro-Muslim unity on several occasions.........
The Greek political establishment shows tolerance......In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by sydney View PostGo walk the streets there and tell them that.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostPutting aside the semantic stupidities, here are the facts that matter. The majority of the so-called "Muslim" minority in Greece is ethnically Turkish. Their native language is Turkish. They would openly identify as Turks in the political arena if Greeks didn't project their insecurities on them. You refer to the terminology used in the Treaty of Lausanne to deflect from a reality that all of you know to be true.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostThe agreement for a population exchange which preceded that treaty was also based on religious identity. The Anatolian refugees, who were of diverse linguistic backgrounds, were allowed to transcend beyond the acknowledgement as Christians to become "ethnic" Greeks.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostYet, the fascist politics that Greece engages in prevents a minority that predates the Anatolian refugees by centuries from exercising the same right.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostGiven that Greeks like to harp on about how Turkey treats its Greek minority in a similar manner, it is surprising that Cavusoglu's counterpart didn't bring up the subject in retaliation.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostPerhaps he was too busy contemplating the Albanian roots of himself and his wife.
As for Dendias he doesn’t have “Albanian roots”, his father was a Greek from Himara.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostThat tends to happen when you treat people like rubbish.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostOne cannot take a sentence seriously if it begins with that phrase.
=Last edited by Amphipolis; 04-18-2021, 09:46 AM.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Amphipolis View PostActually, individual or groups can self-define as they want, but the Muslim minority cannot be officially renamed. Actually, nothing can change about it, unless there’s a new Treaty.
=
Originally posted by Amphipolis View PostThat is a difficult issue, how to treat populations that are both inferior and unwanted.
=I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by AmphipolisFirst of all, the Treaty of Lausanne is very important for Greece and Turkey and even if you find it stupid, it is something set in stone. If it stops to exist many things would change, e.g., these people would not receive Turkish education (unless probably though private schools), their divorces would not be settled through Sharia (!), they would not have beneficial entry in University and so on. The Treaty of Lausanne is not a unilateral Law but a Greek-Turkish deal, so I’m not sure why Turkey wanted it like this in the 1920s. Again, this is not a “so called Muslim” minority, it is a really Muslim one. Most of them may be Turks, but not all of them. So, it is certain their official status cannot change.
What on earth does that mean? The exchanged populations in Greece and Turkey are normal Greek or Turkish citizens and there is no special treatment about them.
Actually, individual or groups can self-define as they want......
Why? How do they treat them?
That is a difficult issue, how to treat populations that are both inferior and unwanted.
The Treaty of Lausanne was based on mutuality, with two equally strong communities (130,000 Muslims in Western Thrace, 270,000 Greeks in Constantinople, Imbros and Tenedos) Turkey exterminated the Greek community, less than 1-2% has survived, some say they’re more.
I don’t see why.
LOL, where do you find this shit? I live in Greece and had never heard who his wife is. I google her and cannot find anything about her ancestry, only that she was a young, divorced architect. Is she Albanian, or what? As for Dendias he doesn’t have “Albanian roots”, his father was a Greek from Himara.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostI don't find the treaty stupid given the context and period of time in which it was written. I find it stupid that some feel the need for the same terminology to be used in perpetuity because they have an inferiority complex. Greece could easily acknowledge what it tacitly concedes in the treaty itself. Treaties have often been amended so spare me the bit about it being set in stone. Your argument implies that it is in the interest of the Turks in Greece to have their ethnic identity denied because without the treaty they would lose certain privileges. Is that really their sentiment? The Turkish minorities in other European countries such as Macedonia or Germany seem to do just fine under secular law. Ditto for the Turks in Turkey. Perhaps it is in the interest of Greece to keep the status quo so it can continue pretending that its population is 98% (or whatever imaginary number they're running with these days) "Greek" rather than opening up the inevitable can of worms that would follow the recognition of ethnic groups in the country. God forbid some of the money which you siphon from EU coffers goes towards the education of ethnic minorities in their native languages.
The ethnic identity of Turks is not denied, it just doesn’t officially apply to non-Turks. Thus, the minority is called Muslim.
Yes, realistically the change or abolishment of the Treaty of Lausanne is impossible. Probably, it would need a major Greek-Turkish War and a change in borders. Even so, it wouldn’t change to the direction you imply.
Yes, secularism or internationally admitted human/women rights violate the Treaty of Lausanne, but it’s no so hopeless. People CAN self-improve if they want to. For instance, polygamy is allowed but it is not practiced so much.
The Muslims of Western Thrace are not of Greek ethnicity.
I believe there are some weekend lessons for foreigners (e.g., Albanians) but I don’t know if this has to do with European Union projects.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostNo need to feign ignorance, you know exactly what I meant. In the 1920's, the mixed bag of Anatolian refugees were considered Christians when they arrived, now they're all Greeks. The Muslims in Greece are still held to the standards of the 1920's and are considered as simply Muslim today, even though most of them are ethnically Turkish. Given that Greece doesn't officially acknowledge any other minority aside from the Muslims, the only way this predicament makes sense is if the term Greek in Greece is synonymous with the term Christian. Such a quasi-theocratic approach would mean all of the Christians in Greece are Greeks, irrespective of their ethnic backgrounds. If that is the rationale that is used, then I will keep it in mind the next time I see a descendant of Anatolian Armenians or Roma peoples from Greece standing next to a statue of Plato and claiming to be a Hellene.
Armenians are not Greeks. Anatolians who were speaking Turkish or Greek-Turkish dialects are indeed considered Greek. They believe the language was enforced to them and that they’re not related to Turks. Turks believe they were Christianized Turks of very early pro-Ottoman times.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostIt's not just about how they self-identify, it is about acknowledgement from the state, you know, what most normal countries do.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostAre you suggesting Greeks don't whine about how their supposed kinsmen are treated in Turkey?
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostIt's really not that difficult, just don't treat your minorities like rubbish. Take the above Hitleresque quote as a starting point. It is an indication of how embedded such xenophobic tendencies are in your people, even those who descend from Anatolian refugees such as yourself. Although they do say that the zeal of recent converts is more fervent. In any case, humour the readers by explaining how exactly Turks are inferior to Greeks?
I have driven through most of the Muslim villages and it often feels you’re in a different continent or a different century (and I don’t mean the 20th century). Greeks and Turks, wherever they co-exist (Thrace, Cyprus) or as countries have also striking differences in quality, so you don’t really have to search in economical, social or development indices, but there are dozens of them out there.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostDon't be hyperbolic about such a serious accusation. Turkey didn't exterminate 265,000 Greeks in Istanbul, Gokceada and Bozcaada. The decline in population is mostly due to emigration. Emigration was mostly due to ethnic tensions. Neither country is without blemish where it concerns the treatment of ethnic minorities.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostThe phrase "Greek political establishment" doesn't naturally pair with the word "tolerance" given that Greece has no tolerance for its ethnic minorities when it comes to official recognition. That's why such a sentence can't be taken seriously.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostI was (only) half-joking. I did a quick search and found some questioning both his and her background by suggesting a possible Albanian connection. Then I quickly came to the realisation that the ancestral roots of Dendias and Lala were beneath my shoes in terms of priorities in life. So I resumed watching TV. I leave the quest to you.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by AmphipolisGreece does not provide ethnicity certificates to its’ citizens. Actually, no country does. The ethnic identity of Turks is not denied.....
Yes, realistically the change or abolishment of the Treaty of Lausanne is impossible. Probably, it would need a major Greek-Turkish War and a change in borders.
https://en.protothema.gr/echr-condem...law-in-thrace/
The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) issued a verdict condemning Greece over the obligatory application of the Islamic religious law (Sharia), stating it was illegal to force Greek Muslim citizens in Thrace to follow the religious law......judges in their ruling pointed out that Greece was the only country in Europe that implemented a mandatory Islamic law to certain of its citizens against their wishes.https://www.euractiv.com/section/lan...slim-minority/
The Greek parliament made the practice of Islamic sharia law in family disputes optional for the country’s Muslim minority, changing a century-old legacy......The 1920 Treaty of Sevres and the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne stipulated that Islamic customs and Islamic religious law would apply to thousands of Muslims who suddenly became Greek citizens.https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-of-sharia-law
“There is no doubt this is an important step and a positive one that will open the way to further freedom for our community,” MP Mustafa Mustafa told the Guardian. “But I would have liked it to be fully abolished. No other EU country has sharia.”……The education and religious affairs minister, Constantine Gavroglou, praised its passage as “not just a technical adjustment [but] a very important day for parliament. Sharia, he said, had stemmed “from policies that were hostile toward the minority and sought to create second-class citizens”.
Originally posted by AmphipolisI have driven through most of the Muslim villages and it often feels you’re in a different continent or a different century (and I don’t mean the 20th century).
I can’t follow your logic. Greek is not a synonym of Christian.
Any group A or B (national, ethnic, social, religious, local or gender-based) has a certain quality. Sometimes the qualities are very visible.
Greeks and Turks, wherever they co-exist (Thrace, Cyprus) or as countries have also striking differences in quality, so you don’t really have to search in economical, social or development indices, but there are dozens of them out there.
Nope, it actually IS tolerance and inclusiveness as the protesting and Turkey-controlled Muslims we are talking about are even elected with New Democracy!
Well, do you have a link?In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostThe average citizen of Greece doesn't (can't) deny the existence of Turks in the country because they are a reality. Officially, however, Greece does deny their ethnic identity. Unlike most normal countries, Greece refuses to conduct a population census that includes questions on ethnicity and language. You feel the ambiguity created by such evasiveness entitles you to engage in verbal gymnastics. People who aren't ignorant of Greece's demographic history view this practice as inherent fraudulence stemming from a generational insecurity that has become part of your culture.
Countries of immigrants like USA or Australia conduct population censuses with questions about ethnicity and language. As far as I know, neither Greece nor any other country in European Union does that.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostWhere were the border changes and Turkish-Greek war of 2018 when new legislation effectively abrogated sections of the treaty?Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostA supposedly Christian country forcing Sharia law on its reluctant Muslim citizens. Question - how sick are you?
From, my point of view it seems like a small step to the right direction, but I’m not a Muslim. The critical parts are of course missing from the articles, i.e., the opinion of Muslims, or the opinion of Turkey. Gavroglou and Mustapha (mentioned in the link) are the Minister and the Muslim Member of the Parliament of Tsipras party back in 2017, so they have a secular point of view.
The case mentioned in the links is also an interesting one. A Muslim man with no-children died. He DID make a will leaving everything to his widow (he seems to be quite wealthy). But according to Sharia ¾ of his property should go to his two sisters (because I guess, civil wills do not matter in Sharia and wives matter less). It is also explained that according to Sharia a will is a different thing. To make things more complicated part of his disputed property is in Turkey, not in Greece.
The fist Greek Court said to the sisters “Fuck you, the guy made a civil will”. Sounds fine to me.
The sisters appealed. The second Greek court basically agreed with the fist.
The sisters went to the Higher Court of Cassation. That Court said the sisters are right, it’s up for the Mufti to decide. It also said the disputed property is mulkia (WTF?), it was acquired during Ottoman times under Islamic Law and it should be judged under Islamic Law. It annulled the previous decision and sent back the case to the previous court.
The Fourth Court said, yes the previous decisions were wrong, yeah right it’s a mulkia, fuck it, it goes under Sharia Law.
Other funny sides of the story: the widow says “my husband was not a practicing Muslim” (argument rejected).
Part of the dispute continues in Turkey about the Turkish property.
This is just in the middle of the story; I just had no patience to read further. I think in the end the European Court justified the sisters, and the Greek courts, but also forced Greece to pay a small compensation to the widow for her righteous legal fight (?), I’m not sure I understood what happened.
The widow played the last legal card of discrimination, i.e., she claimed that if she were Christian or a man, she would have taken the property, so she was discriminated because she was a Muslim and a woman. The European Court said that the Treaties DO refer to Muslim communities and were made in order to protect Muslims and respect Muslim laws.
There is also a European touch, referring to similar problems with increasing Mufti’s jurisdiction in other European countries.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostAlmost like a medieval Hellenic Caliphate, right? Yeah, I can see why you'd have that perception.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostThe only officially acknowledged minority in Greece is the so-called Muslim minority, which means most of those that remain and have a Christian heritage, are treated as Greeks. Given the various ethno-linguistic identities among the latter, it stands to reason that the term Greek is synonymous with Christian, at least in that regard. If not, what exactly does being a "Greek" mean in the population statistics of the country?
The term ethnic-Greek has a very specific legal substance in Greece, not the one you imply or expect. It’s certainly not about characterizing Vlachs or Arvanites who are indeed not ethnically Greek.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostEven if there is any truth to the rest of that diatribe, it doesn't justify your all-embracing prejudices or pathetic treatment of other peoples.
These groups (cultural, racial, ethnic or religious) are relatively backward in every country you will find them, so it can’t be Greece’s fault.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostYou literally impose backwardness in Thrace and force the international community to treat Northern Cyprus as a pariah, then jump to compare how superior you are. Genius. Take away the decades of grooming and leniency by your Germanic sugar-daddies and nothing separates you from the rest of the Balkan peoples.
I’m not sure what unifies or separates Balkan countries. I know we all have Ottoman past. North Greece was liberated about 80-90 years after South Greece, I don’t think we have a cultural or economic gap between us. On the other hand, Muslim-majority regions, or Muslim-majority countries in the Balkans (e.g., Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo) still present the lowest standards.
To be fair, right now, Turkey (which in the last decade is having its’ ups and downs) is wealthier than all non-EU Balkan countries and at some point, they had even reached and surpassed Bulgaria (which is usually at the far bottom of EU). Now, Turkey is again beneath Bulgaria, with a GDP per capita at about 82% of Bulgaria, but above Christian countries like Serbia or Montenegro.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Amphipolis View PostNorth Greece was liberated about 80-90 years after South GreeceRisto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
Comment
-
Comment