Modern Turkey: Ottomanism vs Secularism

[Soldier of Macedon]

Actually, both Greece and the average Greek admit the existence of (ethnic) Turks in the country.

Can you provide some examples where Greece officially acknowledges the existence of ethnic Turks in the country and what type of basic rights emanate from such acknowledgement? I would like to juxtapose that with documented instances of Greece forbidding the use of the word "Turk" in western Thrace.

Neither considers the Pomaks as Turks.

Neither do I, so no need to keep bringing up the Pomaks.

Countries of immigrants like USA or Australia conduct population censuses with questions about ethnicity and language. As far as I know, neither Greece nor any other country in European Union does that.

Don't hide behind the EU. Germany officially acknowledges a number of ethno-linguistic groups due to their centuries-old history in the country. Take the Sorbs as an example. They have no nation-state of their own yet are considered a national minority and their language has formal recognition in Germany. If Greece was in any way comparable it would afford the same courtesy to its Macedonian and Turkish minorities. Even Bulgaria and Albania, who share the same paranoia as Greece and skew their population statistics, grudgingly acknowledge the existence of other ethno-linguistic groups.

None of this applies.

The ruling contravenes a section of the treaty and thus refutes your simplistic assertion that war would precipitate such an amendment. If you disagree with the characterisation of this event then take it up with the media outlets that presented this story and the ECHR who scolded your country for mimicking Saudi Arabia.

The critical parts are of course missing from the articles, i.e., the opinion of Muslims, or the opinion of Turkey. Gavroglou and Mustapha (mentioned in the link) are the Minister and the Muslim Member of the Parliament of Tsipras party back in 2017, so they have a secular point of view.

Are you suggesting most of the Muslims in western Thrace would prefer to live under Sharia law as opposed to secular law like their brethren in Turkey? Or that Turkey are fine with secular law in their own country but would prefer for their brethren in western Thrace to remain under Sharia law? If the Turks and other Muslims in western Thrace disagree with MP Mustafa, where was the outcry and demonstration against the ruling?

I don’t know what that means.

You're not that stupid. Connect the dots.

Some official statistics count/present foreigners from a legal point of view, so second generation immigrants may appear as Greeks now.

In which official statistics do they appear as Greeks? Define the meaning of "Greeks" in such statistics.

The term ethnic-Greek has a very specific legal substance in Greece, not the one you imply or expect. It’s certainly not about characterizing Vlachs or Arvanites who are indeed not ethnically Greek.

Define it. Provide examples of its use in legal documentation and how, within the same framework, such an individual is differentiated from a person that identifies as an ethnic Vlach.

Invading a foreign country, kicking its’ people out of their houses and bringing settlers is generally not accepted. The last part is actually considered a war crime that is not forgiven or forgotten.

Greece invaded Macedonia, which was part of the Ottoman Empire, kicked out Macedonians and Turks and brought in settlers. One can argue about the legitimacy of Northern Cyprus, but Greece's annexation of southern Macedonia is the epitome of illegitimacy. The fact that you would deem rape, theft, property destruction and murder as an act of liberation is one reason why we, the Macedonians, have neither forgiven nor forgotten. Choose your next reply carefully, lest you insult the memory of my ancestors who had to endure such barbarism.

[Amphipolis]

Can you provide some examples where Greece officially acknowledges the existence of ethnic Turks in the country and what type of basic rights emanate from such acknowledgement? I would like to juxtapose that with documented instances of Greece forbidding the use of the word "Turk" in western Thrace.

Greece calls them Turks or “Turkogenous” which means “of Turkish descent” and their language is called Turkish.

Neither do I, so no need to keep bringing up the Pomaks.

Well, actually THAT is the issue, and about Romani (Gypsies) also.

Don't hide behind the EU. Germany officially acknowledges a number of ethno-linguistic groups due to their centuries-old history in the country. Take the Sorbs as an example. They have no nation-state of their own yet are considered a national minority and their language has formal recognition in Germany. If Greece was in any way comparable it would afford the same courtesy to its Macedonian and Turkish minorities. Even Bulgaria and Albania, who share the same paranoia as Greece and skew their population statistics, grudgingly acknowledge the existence of other ethno-linguistic groups.

Greece generally doesn’t use (officially) the term minority, except for the Muslim minority of Western Thrace. This is also the only case with official education in different language. I’m not sure what you say about Germany or Bulgaria is correct.

I think Albania is bound by Treaties about its’ Greek minority, but there are some issues that have been discussed before in the forum.

Greece certainly does not recognize a Macedonian ethnicity or minority, disagreeing both on the name and essence. We usually speak of a Slavophone or Slav Macedonian community or group.

The ruling contravenes a section of the treaty and thus refutes your simplistic assertion that war would precipitate such an amendment. If you disagree with the characterisation of this event then take it up with the media outlets that presented this story and the ECHR who scolded your country for mimicking Saudi Arabia.

I think you’re wrong. What ruling are you talking about? I also read extended statements by European Court of Human Rights but not the part about Saudi Arabia. Actually, the statements I read were very moderate and respectful towards Sharia.

Are you suggesting most of the Muslims in western Thrace would prefer to live under Sharia law as opposed to secular law like their brethren in Turkey? Or that Turkey are fine with secular law in their own country but would prefer for their brethren in western Thrace to remain under Sharia law? If the Turks and other Muslims in western Thrace disagree with MP Mustafa, where was the outcry and demonstration against the ruling?

Yes, there’s a moderate disagreement by Turkey, the Muftis (of course) and by the most religious part of the minority. The percentages and opinions among the minority are totally unclear.

It’s fair to say that the minority is represented by its’ 2, 3 or 4 MPs. For instance, I have found previous statements by the Muslim MP of New Democracy proposing that Muslims should be able to choose between Civil Courts and Sharia IF ALL PARTS AGREE. The problem is that in a dispute the Civil Court usually benefits one side and Sharia the other side. Actually, the discussed law by Gavroglou is a bigger step towards secularism.

In which official statistics do they appear as Greeks? Define the meaning of "Greeks" in such statistics.

There are efforts to estimate the numbers of legal or illegal immigrants and foreigners of all sorts. Some of the numbers and pies you can find out there are based on sources that simply refer to people born in different countries. I couldn’t find what I remembered but it was a funny one as it presented a sizeable Albanian community in Greece (around 7%) and also… a German one.

Define it. Provide examples of its use in legal documentation and how, within the same framework, such an individual is differentiated from a person that identifies as an ethnic Vlach.

The only practical legal use I can think of is if an ethnic-Greek from abroad acquires Greek citizenship. The Greek term is “homogenous” which means “of our blood/genre”. In the old days this would not apply for Slavophones or Muslims of Thrace, actually there would be laws removing their citizenship if they had left Greece for many years without license (that suggested the country wanted to get rid of them).
Vlachs are usually patriotic. Those separatists of World War II were probably expelled or executed; I don’t remember.

In short, Vlachs define as Vlachs (and as Greeks). There are very few who would say, I’m not Greek, I’m Vlach, I’m only a Greek citizen. Such an activist that has no Greek citizenship (for some reason) and tries to get or regain one may probably be rejected.

In the past there were also other discriminations; Muslims were not eligible to become Army officers,

Greece invaded Macedonia, which was part of the Ottoman Empire, kicked out Macedonians and Turks and brought in settlers. One can argue about the legitimacy of Northern Cyprus, but Greece's annexation of southern Macedonia is the epitome of illegitimacy. The fact that you would deem rape, theft, property destruction and murder as an act of liberation is one reason why we, the Macedonians, have neither forgiven nor forgotten. Choose your next reply carefully, lest you insult the memory of my ancestors who had to endure such barbarism.

What on earth are you referring to?

There’s a generic (moral, historical) legitimacy that can be one-sided or judged by third-parties and there’s the strict legal part. If Cyprus had signed a Treaty with Turkey, which they wisely avoided doing beside the pressure, Turkish Cyprus (or whatever it was named) would be recognized by everyone today.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Greece calls them Turks or “Turkogenous” which means “of Turkish descent” and their language is called Turkish.

I'm not interested in your hearsay. I asked for examples that demonstrate official acknowledgement of Turks and associated rights.

Well, actually THAT is the issue, and about Romani (Gypsies) also.

No need to keep making it an issue. The treaty considers all Muslims in western Thrace as a collective, but not all Muslims in western Thrace are Turks. We've got it. You can move on.

Greece generally doesn’t use (officially) the term minority, except for the Muslim minority of Western Thrace. This is also the only case with official education in different language.

Then don't compare backward Greece with EU countries like Germany.

I’m not sure what you say about Germany or Bulgaria is correct.

Try expanding your research beyond the first Google result in Greek.

I think Albania is bound by Treaties about its’ Greek minority, but there are some issues that have been discussed before in the forum.

An antiquated treaty isn't required for the Macedonian minority in Albania. They have official (albeit partial) recognition.

Greece certainly does not recognize a Macedonian ethnicity or minority, disagreeing both on the name and essence. We usually speak of a Slavophone or Slav Macedonian community or group.

That's merely a convenient excuse. The fact is, even if the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia were to accept being labelled with such a degrading exonym or insignificant relic, the demented political ideology in Greece will never allow for the official recognition of such a minority, because it would punch a hole right through the myth of continuity and homogeneity.

I think you’re wrong.

No, I'm right. The ruling did contravene a section of the treaty and it didn't take a war to make it happen.

What ruling are you talking about?

The exchanges in this discussion are long enough without having to respond to questions that have obvious answers. At some point I will tire from telling you to figure it out.

I also read extended statements by European Court of Human Rights but not the part about Saudi Arabia. Actually, the statements I read were very moderate and respectful towards Sharia.

The reference to Saudi Arabia was meant to be hyperbolic. If you can't grasp the analogy then do some more thinking.

Yes, there’s a moderate disagreement by Turkey, the Muftis (of course) and by the most religious part of the minority. The percentages and opinions among the minority are totally unclear.

The disagreement was moderate to the point of irrelevance. There was no outcry in western Thrace and Turkey objecting to either the verdict of the ECHR or the decision of the Greek parliament. That much is clear.

I have found previous statements by the Muslim MP of New Democracy proposing that Muslims should be able to choose between Civil Courts and Sharia IF ALL PARTS AGREE.

It sounds like this MP would’ve also supported the change. The point is, contrary to the earlier practice that was upheld by the supreme court in Greece, the grieving party now has the option of taking the matter to civil court rather than the Mufti, whether the other party agrees to it or not, thus revoking the obligatory application of Sharia Law that was hitherto imposed by "Christian" Greece.

There are efforts to estimate the numbers of legal or illegal immigrants and foreigners of all sorts. Some of the numbers and pies you can find out there are based on sources that simply refer to people born in different countries. I couldn’t find what I remembered but it was a funny one as it presented a sizeable Albanian community in Greece (around 7%) and also… a German one.

You indicated that second-generation foreigners may appear as Greeks in some official statistics. I asked for the data and a definition of “Greeks” in such statistics, and you present me with your memory loss. The task of holding you to account for every sloppy or baseless statement is tedious. The next time you have a bout of amnesia, don’t bother responding. Take heed.

The only practical legal use I can think of is if an ethnic-Greek from abroad acquires Greek citizenship. The Greek term is “homogenous” which means “of our blood/genre”.

Interesting how the only practical legal use you can think of relates to people from abroad who are seeking citizenship in Greece, rather than to people in Greece itself. Suppose an ethnic Vlach from Canada who identifies as both a Vlach and a Greek wishes to emigrate to Greece, does he qualify as being of the blood?

In short, Vlachs define as Vlachs (and as Greeks). There are very few who would say, I’m not Greek, I’m Vlach, I’m only a Greek citizen.

Yes, I know. There are even associations in Greece that consist of ethnic Vlachs who don't take any measures to preserve their language. The disposition towards their ethno-linguistic heritage has less to do with indifference and more to do with dedicating their miserable lives to the pursuit of cultural suicide. As neither the ethnic Vlachs nor their language have any official recognition in Greece, it makes the existence of such associations both redundant and pathetic.

In the old days this would not apply for Slavophones…….

I accepted the use of that term in one instance earlier because it was in reference to Greece's racist treatment of the Macedonians. It wasn't necessary in the above context. Don't use it again in such a manner. If you can't be civil, bite your tongue or get lost. Push further and the reaction will be more definitive.

What on earth are you referring to?

I’m referring to your hypocrisy in pointing out what the Turks allegedly did to Greeks in Cyprus whilst being oblivious to what the Greeks did to Macedonians and Turks in Macedonia. Pretending to not understand the premise of my response doesn’t lend any intelligence to yours. I will repeat what I stated earlier - figure it out. Persist with the charade and you will not be afforded the same courtesy in subsequent replies.

There’s a generic (moral, historical) legitimacy that can be one-sided or judged by third-parties and there’s the strict legal part. If Cyprus had signed a Treaty with Turkey, which they wisely avoided doing beside the pressure, Turkish Cyprus (or whatever it was named) would be recognized by everyone today.

Legality in the political world is about as fluid as your definition of a Greek. New states become “strictly legal” when dominant forces extend recognition. Throughout history, this has been defined by politician ambition and arbitrarily breached by anyone with power, motive and commitment. So, spare me the lecture. What you call a “false-state” in Northern Cyprus is in fact a de facto state that would have already been recognised by other countries were it not for the ceaseless whining of the people who triggered the farcical situation on that island in the first place and the strategic objectives of their patrons.

[Amphipolis]

I'm not interested in your hearsay. I asked for examples that demonstrate official acknowledgement of Turks and associated rights.

This is not my hearsay, it’s been phrased, for instance, by former President of Greece, Costis Stephanopoulos. The associated rights of these people come from the fact that they are Muslims of western Thrace, not Turks. Ethnic ancestry usually does not produce any special legal rights. I know a Greek girl that has a Spanish grandmother, i.e., her ancestry is ¼ Spanish. Nobody knows that or cares about it and it doesn’t produce any legal rights, except probably in Spain.

No need to keep making it an issue. The treaty considers all Muslims in western Thrace as a collective, but not all Muslims in western Thrace are Turks. We've got it. You can move on.

For the third time: This IS the whole issue: how the Muslim minority will be considered/called Turkish.

Then don't compare backward Greece with EU countries like Germany.

I don’t see why. I read that Germany recognizes only 5-6 linguistic minorities (most are German or half-German dialects) and provides, rather unwillingly it seems, some local educational rights.

An antiquated treaty isn't required for the Macedonian minority in Albania. They have official (albeit partial) recognition.

I think you should play the card of mutuality, which is not just a card, mutuality is a very reasonable and very fair principle.

That's merely a convenient excuse. The fact is, even if the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia were to accept being labelled with such a degrading exonym or insignificant relic, the demented political ideology in Greece will never allow for the official recognition of such a minority, because it would punch a hole right through the myth of continuity and homogeneity.

Never say never. As you know education did come close to realization (abecedar) and was according to treaties. Did these treaties describe a national minority, an ethnic or a linguistic one? And what did they call it?

The disagreement was moderate to the point of irrelevance. There was no outcry in western Thrace and Turkey objecting to either the verdict of the ECHR or the decision of the Greek parliament. That much is clear.
It sounds like this MP would’ve also supported the change. The point is, contrary to the earlier practice that was upheld by the supreme court in Greece, the grieving party now has the option of taking the matter to civil court rather than the Mufti, whether the other party agrees to it or not, thus revoking the obligatory application of Sharia Law that was hitherto imposed by "Christian" Greece.

It’s certain that there was never an outcry either FOR or AIGAINST the Sharia. Also, Muslims (just as Christians) have ways to be secular, e.g., have a civil wedding. Furthermore, every married or old person, in case he’s interested, SHOULD know the basic about divorce or inheritance laws.

You indicated that second-generation foreigners may appear as Greeks in some official statistics. I asked for the data and a definition of “Greeks” in such statistics, and you present me with your memory loss. The task of holding you to account for every sloppy or baseless statement is tedious. The next time you have a bout of amnesia, don’t bother responding. Take heed.

I’m referring to the type of statistics one usually finds when he wants to research the great replacement. I can’t find the Greek version I remember but this is a similar one for UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom

Note: This gives 82% British people and 18% foreign-born people (from various countries). Thus, it hides all second or third-generation immigrants who are now presented as British. Lastly, real Brits that were born, e.g., in India or USA are presented in the respective categories.

Interesting how the only practical legal use you can think of relates to people from abroad who are seeking citizenship in Greece, rather than to people in Greece itself. Suppose an ethnic Vlach from Canada who identifies as both a Vlach and a Greek wishes to emigrate to Greece, does he qualify as being of the blood?

Well, he would have to come from Greece (before his ancestors going to Canada), he can’t be a Bulgarian Vlach.

For instance, I was reading a Parliament Question by nationalist Kyriakos Velopoulos. He’s protesting because Greek citizenship was DENIED to three individuals (three separate cases) who were Greek activists and are probably Greek/Vlachs, either all or two of them. (1) Ekaterini Vida, a Greek activist and teacher of Greek in Prilep that comes from Variko, Florina. (2) A similar case of a retired teacher Athanasios Stergiou who lives in Monastir and comes from Mileonas, Florina. (3) Lawyer Georgios Pilis from Monastir, president of the Greek Union Pelagonia, whose grandfather published the first Greek newspaper in Monastir in 1913 (called Hellenic Light) and who is asking for citizenship for himself and his family.

I’m referring to your hypocrisy in pointing out what the Turks allegedly did to Greeks in Cyprus whilst being oblivious to what the Greeks did to Macedonians and Turks in Macedonia. Pretending to not understand the premise of my response doesn’t lend any intelligence to yours. I will repeat what I stated earlier - figure it out. Persist with the charade and you will not be afforded the same courtesy in subsequent replies.

I thought you said the Greeks raped, killed, and kicked your ancestors out of their houses, so I asked when-where that happened. Just curious to see the similarities with Cyprus.

Legality in the political world is about as fluid as your definition of a Greek. New states become “strictly legal” when dominant forces extend recognition. Throughout history, this has been defined by politician ambition and arbitrarily breached by anyone with power, motive and commitment. So, spare me the lecture. What you call a “false-state” in Northern Cyprus is in fact a de facto state that would have already been recognised by other countries were it not for the ceaseless whining of the people who triggered the farcical situation on that island in the first place and the strategic objectives of their patrons.

Again, Greece or Turkey cannot persuade the countries to change their position because of some basic principles of international law broken in the 1974 invasion and some basic weaknesses in the Turkish narrative. If you really support Turkish Cyprus, you should ask Australia to recognize it.

[Carlin]

Well, he would have to come from Greece (before his ancestors going to Canada), he can’t be a Bulgarian Vlach.

For instance, I was reading a Parliament Question by nationalist Kyriakos Velopoulos. He’s protesting because Greek citizenship was DENIED to three individuals (three separate cases) who were Greek activists and are probably Greek/Vlachs, either all or two of them. (1) Ekaterini Vida, a Greek activist and teacher of Greek in Prilep that comes from Variko, Florina. (2) A similar case of a retired teacher Athanasios Stergiou who lives in Monastir and comes from Mileonas, Florina. (3) Lawyer Georgios Pilis from Monastir, president of the Greek Union Pelagonia, whose grandfather published the first Greek newspaper in Monastir in 1913 (called Hellenic Light) and who is asking for citizenship for himself and his family.

Yep

[Soldier of Macedon]

This is not my hearsay, it’s been phrased, for instance, by former President of Greece, Costis Stephanopoulos. The associated rights of these people come from the fact that they are Muslims of western Thrace, not Turks. Ethnic ancestry usually does not produce any special legal rights. I know a Greek girl that has a Spanish grandmother, i.e., her ancestry is ¼ Spanish. Nobody knows that or cares about it and it doesn’t produce any legal rights, except probably in Spain.

Your original statement was that Greece admits the existence of ethnic Turks in the country. Instead of providing evidence of official acknowledgement (as ethnic Turks) and associated rights (as ethnic Turks), like I asked, you reference an inconsequential phrase from some former leader and an insignificant parallel with somebody who is part Spanish. Rather than admitting your poor choice of words, you keep dragging the discussion in circles. If I am to be honest, I only have myself to blame for thinking that you could actually be sincere for once in your miserable existence on this forum. Know that I intend to rectify that error of judgement presently. Respond again with anything but an acceptance of the fact that Greece does not officially acknowledge ethnic Turks, and you're done.

For the third time: This IS the whole issue: how the Muslim minority will be considered/called Turkish.

For the last time, we moved past that issue about three weeks ago.

I don’t see why. I read that Germany recognizes only 5-6 linguistic minorities........

Greece doesn't officially recognise the ethnic minorities that have been living in its region for centuries. Germany does. That's why. Don't waste my time with further irrelevance.

I think you should play the card of mutuality, which is not just a card, mutuality is a very reasonable and very fair principle.

Like how Greece doesn't recognise its ethnic Albanian minority but continually moans about the treatment of ethnic Greeks in Albania. Tell me less about reciprocity.

It’s certain that there was never an outcry either FOR or AIGAINST the Sharia.

One disgruntled voice was enough to get the Sharia slapped out of the highest court in Greece. Nobody protested. Move on.

I thought you said the Greeks raped, killed, and kicked your ancestors out of their houses, so I asked when-where that happened. Just curious to see the similarities with Cyprus.

The Carnegie Report alone contains enough evidence of the animal-like behaviour of Greek soldiers. But you know this already. Try and trivialise the suffering of my people again. I dare you.

Again, Greece or Turkey cannot persuade the countries to change their position because of some basic principles of international law broken in the 1974 invasion and some basic weaknesses in the Turkish narrative.

If Greece and its demented sibling stopped bitching to the West, Northern Cyprus would be formally recognised by other countries.

Well, he would have to come from Greece (before his ancestors going to Canada), he can’t be a Bulgarian Vlach. For instance, I was reading a Parliament Question by nationalist Kyriakos Velopoulos. He’s protesting because Greek citizenship was DENIED to three individuals (three separate cases) who were Greek activists and are probably Greek/Vlachs, either all or two of them. (1) Ekaterini Vida, a Greek activist and teacher of Greek in Prilep that comes from Variko, Florina. (2) A similar case of a retired teacher Athanasios Stergiou who lives in Monastir and comes from Mileonas, Florina. (3) Lawyer Georgios Pilis from Monastir, president of the Greek Union Pelagonia, whose grandfather published the first Greek newspaper in Monastir in 1913 (called Hellenic Light) and who is asking for citizenship for himself and his family.

A couple of parting observations. The city is called Bitola, not Monastir. Your reference to "Bulgarian Vlach" followed by examples relating to Vlachs from Macedonia is yet another idiotic provocation. If you are trying to get banned, just tell me, and I will happily oblige. Know that your next reply will be scrutinised and if I even detect the slightest time-wasting irrelevance or veiled insult, perceived or otherwise, I will send you packing for the final time. No more warnings. Bank on it.

[Amphipolis]

Your original statement was that Greece admits the existence of ethnic Turks in the country. Instead of providing evidence of official acknowledgement (as ethnic Turks) and associated rights (as ethnic Turks), like I asked, you reference an inconsequential phrase from some former leader and an insignificant parallel with somebody who is part Spanish. Rather than admitting your poor choice of words, you keep dragging the discussion in circles. If I am to be honest, I only have myself to blame for thinking that you could actually be sincere for once in your miserable existence on this forum. Know that I intend to rectify that error of judgement presently. Respond again with anything but an acceptance of the fact that Greece does not officially acknowledge ethnic Turks, and you're done.

That’s easy. I don’t know anybody who denies that ethnic-Turks are ethnic-Turks, so this is not the issue with the minority or Turkey. As explained before their associated rights (because of the Lausanne Treaty) come from the fact that they are Muslims of Western Thrace, not the fact that they are ethnic-Turks, meaning for instance that if one moves to Attica, he won’t have access to Turkish education.

For the last time, we moved past that issue about three weeks ago.

This is recent and it is from Turkey, so you’ll get the idea. Mitsotakis is accused of visiting a Pomak village called Pachne and calling it a Pomak village, while later calling some children Hellenopoula (children of Greece).

https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-invites-greece-to-end-denial-of-turkish-minoritys-identity-164931

Greece doesn't officially recognise the ethnic minorities that have been living in its region for centuries. Germany does. That's why. Don't waste my time with further irrelevance.

This is what it says in the World Directory of Minorities

Germany has four recognized national minorities, namely Danes 50,000 (concentrated in Schleswig-Holstein state), Frisians 60,000-70,000 (based in Eastern and Northern Frisia), Sorbs 60,000 (primarily in Saxony and Brandenburg) and Roma / Sinti (estimated at 105,000 by the Council of Europe,…
There is no official data collection on ethnicity in Germany.


So, I don’t see the difference with Greece

Like how Greece doesn't recognise its ethnic Albanian minority but continually moans about the treatment of ethnic Greeks in Albania. Tell me less about reciprocity.

This is from this link, very good speaking from both sides but quite long.

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/northern-epiros-greek-minority-southern-albania

Critical, then, to the question of the continuity of the Greek minority has been that of state-supported and private Greek language education in Albania. Greek schools were closed in the 1930s; during the communist period, they were opened again with limited resources. In the last three years some Greek language elementary schools in southern Albania again have been closed. Ethnic Greek factions claim that the closing of these schools is evidence of discrimination. They assert that there are no Greek language high schools, and that ethnic Greeks are prevented from establishing their own community-supported schools. Albanian officials maintain that schools have been closed because of dwindling enrollment, that the position of the Greek minority has vastly improved since the fall of the Communist regime, and that Greek schools from elementary to university level exist.

A recent UNESCO report (1995) documents the decline of educational resources in Albania as a whole: between 1990 and 1992, the number of student in some sectors of education fell by 60%; the education budget fell by more than 40% in both 1991 and 1992. It appears that after an expansion of state-supported, Greek language education in 1992-92, new policies were put into effect to limit the extent of Greek language teaching (particularly in grades 5 to 8, the terminal year of bilingual education). In addition, force was used to establish compliance with the new curriculum. Because of a continuing ban on private schools (based on laws passed in the early 1930s), independent schools are illegal and not accredited.

One disgruntled voice was enough to get the Sharia slapped out of the highest court in Greece. Nobody protested. Move on.

Well, actually they DID protest. But in both cases, either FOR or AGAINST the Sharia there is not so much of a protest, because there is not so much of a problem actually.

The Carnegie Report alone contains enough evidence of the animal-like behaviour of Greek soldiers. But you know this already. Try and trivialise the suffering of my people again. I dare you.

The Carnegie Report can be found and read here. Maybe it’s a good opportunity to see some parts of it. There is also (at least) one thread about it.

https://www.academia.edu/33147425/Carnegie_Report_on_the_Balkan_Wars_pdf

If Greece and its demented sibling stopped bitching to the West, Northern Cyprus would be formally recognised by other countries.

As I said, I don’t see how or why any country can recognize it.

A couple of parting observations. The city is called Bitola, not Monastir. Your reference to "Bulgarian Vlach" followed by examples relating to Vlachs from Macedonia is yet another idiotic provocation. If you are trying to get banned, just tell me, and I will happily oblige. Know that your next reply will be scrutinised and if I even detect the slightest time-wasting irrelevance or veiled insult, perceived or otherwise, I will send you packing for the final time. No more warnings. Bank on it.

Nope, I was not implying that these people are Bulgarian Vlachs, none of them is. I was trying to show that I’m not sure there are certain rules on when Greece classifies Vlachs as Greeks.


==

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don’t know anybody who denies that ethnic-Turks are ethnic-Turks, so this is not the issue with the minority or Turkey.

As a country, Greece does not officially acknowledge its ethnic Turkish minority. That is an undeniable fact.

I don’t see the difference with Greece

Germany recognizes four ethnic minorities that have been living in its region for centuries. Greece does not officially acknowledge any of the ethnic minorities that have been living in its region for centuries. And you can't see the difference? Keep playing stupid.

Well, actually they DID protest. But in both cases, either FOR or AGAINST the Sharia there is not so much of a protest, because there is not so much of a problem actually.

Sure, the dissent was "not so much" that Greece and its Sharia-loving supreme court were forced to amend their position.

The Carnegie Report can be found and read here. Maybe it’s a good opportunity to see some parts of it.

Yep, a good opportunity to read about how soldiers of the Greek army raped, murdered and ethnically cleansed people as they "liberated" Macedonia. Try and rationalise it through your demented prism. You will have plenty of time for it shortly.

As I said, I don’t see how or why any country can recognize it.

I already explained how. Keep playing stupid.

Nope, I was not implying that these people are Bulgarian Vlachs, none of them is. I was trying to show that I’m not sure there are certain rules on when Greece classifies Vlachs as Greeks.

You most certainly did imply it. And by denying it, you have made the decision for me. Thus, after years of slithering around under the guise of multiple usernames, subliminal insults, pedantic efforts at denying reality and time-wasting, your unremarkable presence here has reached its inevitable conclusion. Go and have a Turkish coffee with your kinsmen in Xanthi, you've earned it. Enjoy your retirement as I bid you adieu.

[Carlin]

'The old "Turkish Primary School of Xanthi". Back when Greece had a Turkish minority instead of a Muslim one'

URL:

https://mobile.twitter.com/alexsakalis/status/1388063979638075394

[Dove]

You most certainly did imply it. And by denying it, you have made the decision for me. Thus, after years of slithering around under the guise of multiple usernames, subliminal insults, pedantic efforts at denying reality and time-wasting, your unremarkable presence here has reached its inevitable conclusion. Go and have a Turkish coffee with your kinsmen in Xanthi, you've earned it. Enjoy your retirement as I bid you adieu.

SOM, so why did you ban him - in a sentence? He has been allowed to state all manner of nonsense on this site and has not been banned so I would appreciate understanding what, in particular, crossed the line?

[Soldier of Macedon]

SOM, so why did you ban him - in a sentence? He has been allowed to state all manner of nonsense on this site and has not been banned so I would appreciate understanding what, in particular, crossed the line?

He received several temporary bans for his nonsense in the past. When he returned after the second to last banning, he was informed the next time would be permanent. He had been a member of this forum under multiple usernames for many years and was well aware of our history. We kept allowing him back in, naively assuming that he could contribute by presenting the Greek perspective where it was required without the customary wankery. Chalk the final banning up to his continued accumulation of nonsense (and wankery), including his denial of Greek atrocities in Macedonia during the Balkan Wars, his inference that we are something other than Macedonians, his insistence that there is no difference between Germany and Greece where it concerns minority rights, some other things I can't even be bothered mentioning because it is not worth the effort, and his general presence as a useless time-wasting wanker. Read the rest of the thread for specifics.