Hellenic religion

[Vangelovski]

Brandy,

Are you sure that 'holy tradition' was not invented? Why would God not include these 'holy traditions in the Bible? If they were that important to mans salvation and knowledge of God, why weren't they included in the Bible? And why are some of these 'holy traditions' in direct contradiction to the Bible? And if they are in DIRECT contradiction to the Bible, how can they be from God? Is it maybe because the Church institutions created by men are fallible and that man, in his own depravity, has created 'holy tradition' for his own purposes and where it contradicts the Bible he creatively reinteprets it, rather than disposing of these traditions?

I'm happy to debate some of these traditions and show how they are in DIRECT contradiction to Gods Word in the Bible. I'm not interested in man-made theology, either Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant. I'm interested in God's truth. Membership of a Church is not what saves a man, faith in Christ and his atoning death is what saves a man.

One of the reasons God gave us the Bible is so that we can distinguish between a real prophet from God and a false prophet. Once you start adding and substracting from this Book, you are heading down a dangerous road...

[Vangelovski]

I tend to agree with you Risto. That said I will abandon this discussion seeing that it ends argueing about the word, and therefore losing the greater Picture.

I tell you this, we will Know soon enough, when we die, each for him self.


Vangelovski,

you know why I like Johns gospel, cause it says this:



So, in the beginning nothing existed out of the word, which was God, cause through him later all things came to existence.

That passage is in line with the other scientific theories, with the only one difference, scientists talk about things that they can see and observe, about the time space continuum. Religious people go further more and imagine that there was something else. For the science that is an open question.

No scientist will go there, cause it is out of his spectrum, out of time space continuum. If God really exists, he must be out of time space continuum, other than that, he will be limited and obedient to the time space continuum, so he has to have beginning, life span and end.

So where is the difference in both of them, Religious man goes out with his Mind which adhere to time space continuum laws and tries to overcome them and say, there is God out of this limited time space continuum. Each experience, thought or what ever we can come to know is adherent to time space continuum, thus is in no position to speculate about something that is above those laws.

Science will never go that way, cause it is based on observation. God can't be observed, cause if he exists, he is out of space time continuum.

Makedonin,

Firstly, you cannot limit God and determine where and how He exists. Secondly, scientists cannot even observe the bottom of the oceans on this planet (are still discovering new animal and fish species) let alone the "space continuum".

The Bible tells us that God IS (past, present and future - eternal) and created everything. Evolutionists would have us believe that everything was self-created out of nothing.

[Vangelovski]

Then why pray?

Because that is how we talk with God and having a personal relationship with Him is why He created us.

[Rogi]

Has anyone here read 'The Genesis Enigma' by Dr. Andrew Parker?

[Vangelovski]

Has anyone here read 'The Genesis Enigma' by Dr. Andrew Parker?

I havn't come across it.

[Risto the Great]

Because that is how we talk with God and having a personal relationship with Him is why He created us.

Seriously, what is so personal about it? We talk and ask ... he listens and then does what he wants irrespective of what we hope.

[Vangelovski]

Seriously, what is so personal about it? We talk and ask ... he listens and then does what he wants irrespective of what we hope.

Its not about what we want, its about being the person He wants us to be. You'll be amazed at how personal a relationship you can build through regular prayer and Bible study

[makedonin]

Makedonin,
Firstly, you cannot limit God and determine where and how He exists.

You haven't understand anything. I did not tell God where he has to exist or not. I did not limited him to anything. I was using logic. I was speaking to you, not to God. I just told you that, in this Universe, everything has beginning, life span and end, and if any entity that is eternal, which has no beginning life span and end, can't be existend inside of this Universe. It may have the tools and ability to comunicate inside of this creation, but it is definitly not inside of it! Those are the physical laws. If it is inside of this Universe, it can last tousends or milions of years, but it has an begining life span and end.

If anyone restricting God, than you, cause you restrict him on to one Book.

Secondly, scientists cannot even observe the bottom of the oceans on this planet (are still discovering new animal and fish species) let alone the "space continuum".

It is true that science discovers always something news, and they adjusts their theories accordingly. Dogma is not the way of the science. Dogma is the way of the Religion.

I hope for you know what space time continuum is.

The Bible tells us that God IS (past, present and future - eternal) and created everything. Evolutionists would have us believe that everything was self-created out of nothing.

Bible says that, and I am OK with that. It is not the Bible exclusive that it states that. Many religions do the same. Bible and all the rest of the books are written by man. You can call them prophets or what ever to justify the Godlyness of the Words they wrote, it remains that they were man, thus according to you sinfull, according to me adherent to space time continuum laws, thus unable to fully reflect the will or the existence of any eternal being which is not adherent to space time continuum, thus not limited, not bound with begining life span and end.

I don't say that evoloutionists are right or wrong. It is a theory based on some findings. It has it's pros and cons, and I certainly ain't evoloutionist.

There are findings of humanoids which are our anscestors, and they are not completely as we are of today, so it is obvious that they evolved.

I wonder what is your take on those Dinos they all discovered. Were also part of the Gods master plan? It is more than apperant that Humans appeared after those creatures. It is preserved in the Earth. Or maybe the Bible needs new chapter, similar to the Noahs arc, the Metheorit or something, preparing the Earth for the creation of the Humans!?

What so ever, this conversation of ours did not brought anything new to me, and seeing from your posts, neither for you.

My heart says, there is a God, but he is not the way you imagine it. So I will say, I keep my word and stay out of the topic cause neither of us will learn or change something of it's own opinion.

[Jankovska]

The Big Bang holds more water than the theory that 'in the begining God created the Earth'. nothing in science is everything. Evolution holds more water than God made Adam and Eve from mud. Why? Because it can be explained, we can see it. Archeologist have found traces of life millions of years back, the Bible goes back as 2000 years (our religion anyway). How does the Bible explain the dinosaurs? How does it explain speach, development? I mean we can all witness evolution, changes, development but yet NO ONE has seen or witnessed anything the Bible says. NO ONE.
As for the gospels it;s some 12 lunatics writting stuff and smoking some strong dope. It is a great strategy, the Jews were under the Romans, the made up saviour could have brought the masses together to raise against the Romans and come to the long wanted freedom. But everything went wrong when the Jews officials (the greedy ones who could be bribed) betrayed Jesus. As this people were the religious leaders of the Jewish faith they didn't have much trouble convincing the rest of the Jews that Jesus was a fake. So the ones who were his mates, the ones who were the freedom fighters, the ones who dreamt of that freedom carried on with the fight, they created Christianity and they did great. Coz soon that religion will expand so much and will kill so many. So the slaves became the lords and made everyone else a slave.
My problem with this whole topic is: There is NO Archeological or scientific proof to support the story of Jesus. None. There is no proof of holy trinity, of heaven and hell.
There is proof of evolution, science has made things work, has explained how things work. People used to die from the smalles illness until science developed, created and found cure for many illnesses. god didn't come down to earth to do it for us, hard working scientist did it. I am not sure if I am supposed to take this topic seriously because all I am give is quotes from the Bible, a book I don't believe in. The Bible was crearted to control the people after Constantine's death. And I am not saying the Gospels were not written before that, I am saying it doesn't matter. The bible, Christianity and any other religion is a tool used to control the people. If we are going to talk about this you guys needs to give me some solid proof of the Bible, of Jesus, even before him. Some SOLID proof, not stories written by selfish people. I will never get that because such proof doesn't exist. When it comes to science, we live it, use it, breathe it every second of our lifes.

[johnMKD]

Religion is a dogma, Jankovska. Not everything can be explained by reasoning in religion (that's for all religions). You choose to either believe it and follow it or not. Nowadays, there are still a lot of believers and non-believers, as for every topic there are a million different perspectives and opinions. It strongly depends also from education and family background. So long as they respect each others beliefs, everything can go just fine.

[Jankovska]

Religion is a dogma, Jankovska. Not everything can be explained by reasoning in religion (that's for all religions). You choose to either believe it and follow it or not. Nowadays, there are still a lot of believers and non-believers, as for every topic there are a million different perspectives and opinions. It strongly depends also from education and family background. So long as they respect each others beliefs, everything can go just fine.

How about anything? I am not asking for everything, I am asking for a proof of anything, but proof not someone's words.

[Vangelovski]

How about anything? I am not asking for everything, I am asking for a proof of anything, but proof not someone's words.

Jankovska,

I've already posted numerous articles about some of the issues you have raised, but I doubt you have read any of them. I told you I'm willing to engage in a genuine conversation if you stick to ONE topic at a time and keep an open mind.

Makedonin,

If you accept that God has supernatural powers, why do natural laws or laws of physics apply to him?

[Jankovska]

Jankovska,

I've already posted numerous articles about some of the issues you have raised, but I doubt you have read any of them. I told you I'm willing to engage in a genuine conversation if you stick to ONE topic at a time and keep an open mind.

Makedonin,

If you accept that God has supernatural powers, why do natural laws or laws of physics apply to him?

No Vangelovski, all you posted is passages of Bible and Bible related stories. As I have mentioned again, these are stories. I don't believe in the bible therefore you posting anything from a book designed to control people to me is in no way proof.
You keep on saying, God said this, God said that but how do you know? Have you met him? How do you know what he said?
For example science has proven that dinosaurses existed, fosils, archeology etc. Science has proven how mountains became mountains and rivers became rivers. The bible has proven nothing so far. It's a book full of stories. You have ot provided any proof of anything. You have quoted the Bible. That is as far as you have gone.

[makedonin]

If you accept that God has supernatural powers, why do natural laws or laws of physics apply to him?

If I accept, OK, let us say, I accept that!

mid-15c. (implied in supernaturally), "above nature, transcending nature, belonging to a higher realm," from M.L. supernaturalis "above or beyond nature," from L. super "above" (see super-) + natura "nature" (see nature). Originally with more of a religious sense; association with ghosts, etc., has predominated since c.1799. The noun is attested from 1580s.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=supernatural

If you say God has supernatural powers, than he can't have those powers, if he stems out of our realm or nature! Right.

None who is from this realm or nature stands above the the laws of nature. Right.

By saying that, he would most probably be able to interfere into this realm, but his interfiering would destroy the natural order! That woud most likely end with distruction of creation known to us. Similar to the black hole phenomenon!

It is similar to your story about the small kid wanting to put the ocean in the pit! You can't do that, can you?!

God endles, our world limited!

Trying to put the endless in words which are limited is kind of idolatory, both does not fit one another!

[Jankovska]

There is a massive amount of evidence for the Bible being the Word of God, but here is a quick summary of some:

Our answer to this question of whether the Bible is the word of God will ultimately have an eternal impact on us. If the Bible is truly the Word of God, then it is the final authority for all matters of faith, religious practice, and morals. If the Bible is the Word of God, then to dismiss it is to dismiss God Himself.

There are both internal and external evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word. The internal evidences are those things within the Bible that testify of its divine origin. One of the first internal evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1,500 years, by more than 40 authors who came from many walks of life, the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words which God moved men to record.

Another of the internal evidences that indicates the Bible is truly God’s Word is the prophecies contained within its pages. The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, certain cities, and mankind. Other prophecies concern the coming of One who would be the Messiah, the Saviour of all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those by men such as Nostradamus, biblical prophecies are extremely detailed. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and His lineage, but also how He would die and that He would rise again. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible contains.

There are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One is the historicity of the Bible. Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world. The fact that the Bible accurately and truthfully records historically verifiable events is a great indication of its truthfulness when dealing with religious subjects and doctrines and helps substantiate its claim to be the very Word of God.

Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of its human authors. In studying the lives of these men, we find them to be honest and sincere. The fact that they were willing to die often excruciating deaths for what they believed testifies that these ordinary yet honest men truly believed God had spoken to them. The men who wrote the New Testament and many hundreds of other believers (1 Corinthians 15:6) knew the truth of their message because they had seen and spent time with Jesus Christ after He had risen from the dead. Seeing the risen Christ had a tremendous impact on them. They went from hiding in fear to being willing to die for the message God had revealed to them. Their lives and deaths testify to the fact that the Bible truly is God’s Word.

A further external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very Word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history. From early Roman Emperors like Diocletian, through communist dictators and on to modern-day atheists and agnostics, the Bible has withstood and outlasted all of its attackers and is still today the most widely published book in the world.

Throughout time, sceptics have regarded the Bible as mythological, but archaeology has confirmed it as historical. Opponents have attacked its teaching as primitive and outdated, but its moral and legal concepts and teachings have had a positive influence on societies and cultures throughout the world. It continues to be attacked by pseudo-science, psychology, and political movements, yet it remains just as true and relevant today as it was when it was first written. It is a book that has transformed countless lives and cultures throughout the last 2000 years. No matter how its opponents try to attack, destroy, or discredit it, the Bible remains; its veracity and impact on lives is unmistakable. The accuracy which has been preserved despite every attempt to corrupt, attack, or destroy it is clear testimony to the fact that the Bible is truly God’s Word and is supernaturally protected by Him. It should not surprise us that, no matter how the Bible is attacked, it always comes out unchanged and unscathed. After all, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Mark 13:31). After looking at the evidence, one can say without a doubt that, yes, the Bible is truly God’s Word.

www.gotquestions.org

If anyone has any concers about specific parts of the Bible, post them here and we can work through them.

Nothing here proves the Bible being the word of God. It's just words.
The Bible's unity is rubbish, you had followers of a man who wanted freedom for the Jews, followers who felt betrayed and moved throughout the world to 'tell the story'. That is not proof.
The prophesies are just wishful thinking of all. The Jews wanted a country, they found a leader, but so did all other tribes in the world, it's nothing different. That is how the world worked and how it has come to the present. It has nothing to do with God, it's about families, believes, clans, tribes in search of land.
The Bible may detail some historical events but than so do many books on Aleksandar that call him a Greek King. Aleksandar was in no way Greek, we all know it but yet many books in the world are saying that, books that actually detail many correct historical events. Those books are not correct, are they? Some are even older than the Bible.
Just because it still exist is not proof that is true. It's proof that people wanted it to be true enough to have kept it. None of the above is proof. None