Hellenic religion

[Vangelovski]

Jankovska,

Just for you:

Here are some articles which may provide you with some answers - depending on how open-minded you are and whether you are prepared to go where the evidence takes you. There are many more based on other scientific evidence, that get into the scientific 'nuts and bolts', but these are written in plain English. If you are genuinely interested, I can provide you with scientific works that dispel evolution and answer questions of longevity and Noah's ark more technically.

Evolution/ape men:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4366gc8-22-2000.asp

Men living hundreds of years:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2008/06/04/did-people-live-over-900-years

Noah's ark:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/really-a-flood-and-ark

Again, these are basic English articles, if you want something more in-depth, I suggest you visit this site:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer

[Vangelovski]

Nothing here proves the Bible being the word of God. It's just words.
The Bible's unity is rubbish, you had followers of a man who wanted freedom for the Jews, followers who felt betrayed and moved throughout the world to 'tell the story'. That is not proof.
The prophesies are just wishful thinking of all. The Jews wanted a country, they found a leader, but so did all other tribes in the world, it's nothing different. That is how the world worked and how it has come to the present. It has nothing to do with God, it's about families, believes, clans, tribes in search of land.
The Bible may detail some historical events but than so do many books on Aleksandar that call him a Greek King. Aleksandar was in no way Greek, we all know it but yet many books in the world are saying that, books that actually detail many correct historical events. Those books are not correct, are they? Some are even older than the Bible.
Just because it still exist is not proof that is true. It's proof that people wanted it to be true enough to have kept it. None of the above is proof. None

Jankovska,

1. Show me where the Bible contradicts itself.

2. Show me which specific prophesy (which Christians claim has been fulfilled) that you think has not been fulfilled.

[Bratot]

How come the kengaroes are not mentioned on the Noah's Arc?

[Bratot]

Since God has given us the papacy, let us enjoy it.

It has served us well, this myth of Christ.

- Pope Leo X

[Jankovska]

Jankovska,

1. Show me where the Bible contradicts itself.

2. Show me which specific prophesy (which Christians claim has been fulfilled) that you think has not been fulfilled.

The Bible contradicts itself throughout all pages. First God created the world, blah blah and than created men blah blah. And than Eve and he put them to live in Eden, a true paradise, no pain, no dissappointment just happines. Pure happines. Until Satan got invloved in the whole thing.
See what is funny here is as the Bible claims, God knows it all, right? Surely he knew what's going to happen so why not get rid of Satan? Why put the world through misery and pain for billions of years? Why put the forbidden fruit there?
The argument here is that God gave us free will but everywhere later in the Bible his actions prove we are not allowed to have free will. That his will should be our will or we are sinners.
As for prophesies the one that never happen was the promised Messiah to come and save the world. It never happen. Jesus didn't save the world, the world is fucked totaly. There is NO proof that Jesus was the son of God, afterall he was born by a human. There is NO proof that he raised again as no one has seen him for thousands of years but his aprostoli, the same people who wrote the Gospels. Hmmm, nothing suspicious there, right? That prophesy never came true, therefore everything you have stated is just written words by someone who was paid probably to manipulate people.

[Jankovska]

How come the kengaroes are not mentioned on the Noah's Arc?

Coz the Jews didn't know about them therefore they are not kosher

[makedonin]

Is it me seeing things, or do I get this wrong:

There is this Prophet, Hosea, he wrote a kind of poem, about the Gods love of Israel:

God's Love for Israel

1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

2 But the more I [a] called Israel,
the further they went from me. [b]
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.

3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
it was I who healed them.

4 I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love;
I lifted the yoke from their neck
and bent down to feed them.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...11&version=NIV

Than in the new Testament, Matthew 2:13-15 I read:

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." 14So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%202&version=NIV

The new Testament passage, trys to say that Jessus was the child called out of Egypt, which is acctually contradicting to the whole sentence of Hosea.

If Hosea was making a prediction for the future, he would not speak of the past, but in future tense! The verse is in past tense! He talks about Ephraim, something more about him here, who was son of Israel. Also the fourth verse clearly gives the hint that the Lord lifted the yoke from their neck and bent down to feed them.

This is clearly the Exodus!

The poem referes to times before Jessus, and not the times of Jessus.


How comes!

EDIT, I just found this one:

Matthew 2:15 as taken from the KJV New Testament:

And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Next comes the rendering as taken from the Hebrew Masoretic text:

[Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child then, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called to my son. ]
CONTINUING WITH THE CONTEXT OF THE PASSAGE FROM THE JEWISH MASORETIC TEXT

The passage from Hosea refers so obviously to the Exodus from Egypt that very few Christians quote it today. E. W. Hengstenberg, whose book, The Christology of the Old Testament, goes into great detail about passages from the Hebrew Scriptures which are purported to be Christological, is so embarrassed by Matthew's obvious misunderstanding of the Scriptures that he doesn't even mention Hosea 11:1. Amazingly, however, some Christians (even some pastors and Messianic rabbis) still quote it. The writer of the Gospel of Matthew, if a Jew, really ought to have known better than to have an angel tell Joseph to take the Messiah and his mother out of the Promised Land and into Egypt for fear of King Herod. One does not have to read very far into the Bible to see that G-d does not look kindly on those who seek to return to Egypt for fear of the inhabitants of the Promised Land (see, for instance, Numbers 14). G-d was adamant that we were never to return to Egypt: "But he [the king whom we would set over ourselves] shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the L-rd hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way" (Deuteronomy 17:16). When the Chaldeans took Jerusalem, Jeremiah warned the remnant of Judah against returning to Egypt: "For thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; as mine anger and my fury hath been poured forth upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem; so shall my fury be poured forth upon you, when ye shall enter into Egypt: and ye shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse, and a reproach; and ye shall see this place no more".

Answer for yourself: What happened during Jesus's childhood that made God change His mind about Egypt? A further point regarding Matthew's narrative bears mentioning.

http://messianicprophecy.netfirms.co...cape_egypt.htm

[johnMKD]

How about anything? I am not asking for everything, I am asking for a proof of anything, but proof not someone's words.

As I said it is a dogma, every person has his own reasons and reasoning to believe in what the Bible says or not. But, even if seen from an objective point of view, the Bible (as also other religious holy books) are urging people in doing "good". For this only, one cannot disregard their importance throughout history.

[makedonin]

urging people in doing "good". For this only, one cannot disregard their importance throughout history.

No one is debating that John. Good is good

[Jankovska]

As I said it is a dogma, every person has his own reasons and reasoning to believe in what the Bible says or not. But, even if seen from an objective point of view, the Bible (as also other religious holy books) are urging people in doing "good". For this only, one cannot disregard their importance throughout history.

Oh yes, I am not bothered by what people believe. I mean in a perfect world people shouldn't need a book to make themselves be good and do good but we don't live in a perfect world. However if someone is going to talk about proof and facts than I would like to see proof and facts.
And also let's all not forget that the biggest wars in the world were in the name of some God and some book.

[Rogi]

I don't see how WWI and WWII, or in other words 'the biggest wars in the world', were in the name of God?

[Jankovska]

I don't see how WWI and WWII, or in other words 'the biggest wars in the world', were in the name of God?

No you are right, I appologise, I said that wrong. Alot of wars, big wars (maybe not the biggest),from the Crusades to Israel and Palestine have been in the name of God. On a scale if we count the victims throught the centuries I think we can easy beat both world wars.

[Philosopher]

In regard to Hosea 11.1, and the misunderstanding thereof:

Never use a Jewish apologist in trying to understand the New Testament. Jewish apologists are among the most deceitful liars around. They can't make sense of the Old or the New Testament.

The explanation is quite easy...if you understand the proper method of interpretation, which the Jews and yourself, Makedonin, gravely lack.

But in saying this, I say this to your shame, along with the shame of the Jews.

Hosea 11.1 is referring to the Old Testament exodus of the House of Israel from Egypt but with qualifications. No Christian disputes this. So the argument that we Christians are ignorant as the Jews claim, and that we avoid such "mistakes" by the apostle Matthew, is sheer nonsense.

Hosea 11,1, however, like everything else in the old Testament is a "type," "shadow," and a "picture," of the true, and great meaning of the verses.

For example, everything in the Old Testament, much to the horror of the ungodly jews, was merely done to serve as an example of the "true" and "coming" revelation of God, namely, the New Testament.

God does not care for any fleshly people as the Jews like to believe.

The Old Testament sacrificial system is a picture of the sacrifice of Christ; the old testament temple is a picture of the heavenly temple; the old testament "passover," a type and a picture of the true Passover, not the carnal jewish one.

The Name Israel, "ruling with God," is a title given by God to Jacob; the true Israel is Jesus Christ, of which Jacob is a picture. Like Jacob, Jesus had twelve (tribes) descendants, spiritual descendants, the 12 apostles.

Hosea 11.1 has a dynamic meaning, much like Isaiah 7.14, and everything else. Although it is fulfilled in the time of Hosea already, the apostle Matthew applies it to its true and greater meaning in Jesus.

This is what is meant in the New Testament "Which are a shadow of the coming things, but the body is of Christ." A shadow is an unclear, dark image or picture of the true object. Almost everything in the Old Testament is a "shadow," a temporary image bearing an imperfect copy of the real, everlasting, image, namely, the New Testament.

Compare for example, Jeremiah 23.5-8, which says "Lo, days are coming--an affirmation of Jehovah, and I have raised to David a righteous Shoot, and a king hath reigned and acted wisely, and done judgment and righteousness in the earth. In his days Judah is saved, and Israel dwelleth confidently...

The Israel spoken of is referring to the Christian Church, not the Jewish people. Jews look at this verse and say "Judah is still not saved, which means Jesus is not the Messiah," but the reality is that Jesus did save the house of Judah and the house of Israel, on the Cross, when he died for our sins.

Israel is a title in the Old and New Testament that refers both to Jacob the person, and his seed; Jesus, and his seed (the church).

IN this light, look at Hosea 11.1: Is it referring to Jacob the person? NO, but his seed; what is the spiritual meaning, and greater meaning? Who is the true SON called out of Egypt, and not the type and shadow?

The true meaning is: Jesus Christ, and then it is later applied to the Church, the House of Israel, who were called out of Spiritual Egypt, by the Spiritual Lamb of God.

Christians from the earliest ages have known this and the proper interpretation.

Jews are so dense that they argue that Jesus could not have been both a king and priest, since priests descend from Aaron (the tribe of Levi) and Kings from David (the tribe of Judah). And they laugh the New Testament to scorn and Christians. Yet, they completely ignore the Book of Hebrews, in the New Testament, that completely explains this argument. Not a priest according to Levi, which is again a "type," but of Melchisedek, a priesthood without end. See Psalm 110.

Next time, keep your Jewish interpretation to yourself...otherwise you will come across as ignorant as the Jews.

[makedonin]

In regard to Hosea 11.1, and the misunderstanding thereof:

Never use a Jewish apologist in trying to understand the New Testament. Jewish apologists are among the most deceitful liars around. They can't make sense of the Old or the New Testament.

Sorry Philosopher (pagan thing) I came across the passage my self, and did the research my self.

I only came across the Jewish thing later, and edited my post!

You call Jews liars to defend Jessus. Are you aware that he was Jew him self?! I guess not.

The explanation is quite easy...if you understand the proper method of interpretation, which the Jews and yourself, Makedonin, gravely lack.

But in saying this, I say this to your shame, along with the shame of the Jews.

So when something is not like you please, it turns out that one need the Proper interpretation to understand something.

Otherwise one have to be shamed that one did not ask you for the right way to interpret.

Sorry dude, but the whole Hosea passage is written in past tense, Prophecies are in the future.
How comes that.

By the way, I don't really agree with the Jews either, just happened that I see the same in this instance.

Hosea 11,1, however, like everything else in the old Testament is a "type," "shadow," and a "picture," of the true, and great meaning of the verses.

You talk about shadows and types of the Old Testament. Vangelovski was trying to persuade me on the other thread, that I have to read Genesis literally, cause the Earth was created before the Starts, thus that is why BigBang is in contradiction with the Bible. Which would it be? literally or some types and shadows!?
Why would God bother with shadows, when he is the pure light!? If the Old Testament is the shadow, than why cling on it? I see that as desperate try to rectify things to fit your purpose.
The whole explanation you gave is twisting the context. Seeing more to it than there is, is exactly true deed of Spirituaity (Imaginaion).

[Mr Brandy]

No you are right, I appologise, I said that wrong. Alot of wars, big wars (maybe not the biggest),from the Crusades to Israel and Palestine have been in the name of God. On a scale if we count the victims throught the centuries I think we can easy beat both world wars.

Isn't the purpose of war almost always to acquire or defend land and resources?