Hellenic religion

[Philosopher]

So you do believe that all humans stem from Adam and Eve? If so how did they prevent inter breeding? Are you residing in the States?

If the Bible is a book in which isolated events have no meaning or connection to anything else; if it is a book where certain "historic" events are unprovable and undeterminable, then I would argue that the story of Adam and Eve would be a myth, since it is impossible to know whether the story has any veracity behind it.

I mean, why belive in the biblical story of origins as opposed to the Indian or Egyptian or Babylonian, right?

Therefore, there must be something more. Those who attack the Bible and Christianity laugh at the idea of Adam and Eve and raise many objections to the story, one of which is the interbreeding of the human race.

Here is why I believe the story to be true and verifiable. The story of Adam is at the heart of Christianity.

For example, in the New Testament, which usually explains the meaning of the Old Testament, Paul writes in Romans 5.14-21

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Here Paul informs us that Adam's sin brought death and suffering to the human race; Adam was expelled out of Paradise (Eden) for his transgression and barred from the Tree of Life.

In 1 Corithians 15.21-22

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

And in 15.45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Gen 2:7

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the second Adam or man. Death came to the world by sin, by the first man, and by the second, Jesus Christ, the heavenly man, the life giving spirit, brought life by his sinless life.

This is why Christ was able to rise again from the dead; his resurrection is based on the biblical notion that sin brings death; Christ, the sinless one, by his death on the Cross, was able to Resurrect, because death had no power over him.

Without Adam's death, there is no Christ's Resurrection; without Adam's fall, there is no Christ's restitution.

In the New Testament, in the book of Acts 17.26 it reads "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

God hath made of Adam and Eve the whole human race; interbreeding was only allowed in the begining to populate the human race; it was later strickly forbidden by God in the Mosaic Law.

The reason why two people were choosen is for the reasons outlined above; to show that all humans partake of the consequences of Adam and Eve's transgression. This "one blood" is to show that the whole human race is in need of a Savior--Jesus Christ.

Otherwise, it thwarts the whole Christian dogma of Salvation.

By the way, you still haven't explained how christ predicted the Destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD forty years before it happend.

[Risto the Great]

Philosopher, you appear to have a penchant for the Olde English version of the Bible. Any good reason for this?

[Philosopher]

Philosopher, you appear to have a penchant for the Olde English version of the Bible. Any good reason for this?

My good man, there are a few reasons.

One is that, from a pure poetic and euphonic sense, I love the way it reads and sounds.

But more than this, the old English version is more accurate. First, it comes from a better Greerk Manuscript. Second, it is a more literal translation. And third, the old English retaines something which modern English doesn't.

In all languages, except English, there is a difference between singular you (thou) and plural (ye and you). The modern English translations don't retain this distiniction and therefore, it really fails to convey the correct meaning of many verses.

Lastly, modern translations tend to have a modern liberal bias and therefore, translate the text in an inappropriate manner, as well as mistranslate the meaning of the original.

[Rogi]

What is the oldest bible available, that we rely upon today?

What language were the original scriptures of the old testament written in? Was it Hebrew?

So then, when (how long after) was it translated to the ancient 'Greek'? How sure can we be that the contexts and meanings of the ancient Hebrew were so exactly translated in the ancient 'Greek' translation?

The same can be said of the new Testament, can't it? How sure are we that the translations and meanings we have applied to it, are the same as those from when it was written?

Can it be said that we have played Chinese whispers over a couple of thousand years? Is it feasible to suggest that we may have gone completely off from the meanings and contexts of the original scriptures which we, I believe, do not have?

[Philosopher]

What is the oldest bible available, that we rely upon today?

What language were the original scriptures of the old testament written in? Was it Hebrew?

So then, when (how long after) was it translated to the ancient 'Greek'? How sure can we be that the contexts and meanings of the ancient Hebrew were so exactly translated in the ancient 'Greek' translation?

The same can be said of the new Testament, can't it? How sure are we that the translations and meanings we have applied to it, are the same as those from when it was written?

Can it be said that we have played Chinese whispers over a couple of thousand years? Is it feasible to suggest that we may have gone completely off from the meanings and contexts of the original scriptures which we, I believe, do not have?

With all due respect, Rogi, you have seen one too many Dan Brown movies and read one too many of his books. I find it astonishing that so many members on this forum are so conspiratorial in regard to the Bible and Christianity yet without any evidence to support their positions.

Why all this conspiracy? I know, I know, it is the Roman Catholic Church--even though the Roman Catholic Church never existed in the first few hundred years of Christendom.

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek. In the 3rd century BC, the Hebrew Bible was translated by 72 Jewish Scholars in Alexandria, Egypt. This translation is known as the Septuagint; this Koine translation of the Old Testament is still with us today and is used by the Eastern Church.

There are over 5000 manuscripts of the Greek New Testament in circulation today. Within these 5000 manuscripts, there is little in the way of differences; the differences certainly do not affect Christian dogma in any way.

But, besides, even if we disregard all of these versions of the New Testament, the fact remains that we have in our possession the writings of the Church Fathers, which began in the late first century up to the tenth century AD. In these writings, the authors quote from the Old and New Testaments; they write of Christian dogma. Comparing our New Testaments to the ones they use, one thing is apparent: there is not a dime's worth of difference. The doctrines we believe today are the same they believed; and they received theirs from the apostles--apostolic tradition. To suggest that the New Testament we have today is anything but the original ones is without any evidence.

If the New Testament is not an accurate ancient source, then no ancient writing is, since the New Testament is the most well documented book in the ancient world. Moreover, God has promised to preserve his Word to all generations, for our eternal salvation depends upon it.

Provide me proof that it is otherwise. I'll be waiting.

The Greek Septuagint, the translation of the Hebrew and Aramaic Old Testament, is very accurate of the Hebrew and Aramaic. Moreover, the Dead Sea scrolls, which I don't trust all that much, are considered the oldest surviving portions of Scripture, and they agree with the Hebrew and Septuagint translations we have today.

Again, the issue is whether the Bible has evidence contained therein that proves itself to be the work of a Being who knew the end from the beginning. If the Bible is a series of isolated and incoherent stories then I would agree with you. But, my friend, the Bible is anything but.

In order to hold to the position you espouse, you would have to be so damn ignorant of the Bible that it would be laughable even to begin to formulate an answer.

How do you explain Christ's prediction that the Second Temple would be destroyed forty years before it happened?
How do you explain Isaiah’s prophecy 700 years before Christ that the gentiles would be converted by the Messiah from paganism to the worship of the Monotheistic GOD?
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Mt 12:18
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Mt 12:19
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Mt 12:20
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Luke 2:32
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


How do you explain that almost every character in the Old Testament is a type of Christ? Do you even know what this means? If you did, you would not be entertaining the beliefs you hold.

[Dejan]

What's the difference between koine and koine 'greek'? Or do you just include the word 'greek' to make it sound more athenian??? Serious question.

[Spartan]

No difference
Koine is Greek
"Koine" means common

Koine Greek (Greek: Κοινὴ Ἑλληνική IPA: [kɔɪnɛ̝^], Mod.Gk. IPA: [kʲiˈni e̞liniˈkʲi], "common Greek", or ἡ κοινὴ διάλεκτος, Mod.Gk. [i kʲiˈni ðiˈale̞kto̞s], "the common dialect") is the popular form of Greek which emerged in post-Classical antiquity (c.300 BC – AD 300). Other names are Alexandrian, Hellenistic, Common, or New Testament Greek. Koine was the first common supra-regional dialect in Greece and came to serve as a lingua franca for the eastern Mediterranean and ancient Near East throughout the Roman period. It was also the original language of the New Testament of the Christian Bible.[1] Koine is the main ancestor of modern Greek.

This is from Wiki

[Dejan]

So why 'koine greek'?

[Risto the Great]

God sided with one nation over others in the past; just as he sides with one nation today over others; he is on the side of righteousness.

This is the part that I find difficult to reconcile.
I don't think Macedonians have been particularly evil since biblical times. In fact, we have been quite significant throughout Christianity for a number of reasons. Yet Macedonians are copping it severely.

[Rogi]

Risto,

I see that as a test of our faith.

Despite everything, as a collective we Macedonian have remained loyal and faithful to God and as a believer, I place a lot of value on that and all that it will bring to our people in the end.

The Jews and the Macedonians feature prominently in the bible and I find it most interesting that it is these two people's who have arguably suffered the greatest of all - that is, there are on-going attempts to wipe these people off the face of the planet.

The Jews now seem to be missing the point of their test and are getting closer to becoming what they feared, but the Macedonians still remain the ones who have not done unto others what they would not want done unto them...

I think our time will come.

[Spartan]

So why 'koine greek'?

Why not?
The 3 or 4 main Greek dialects of the time were combined so all the Greeks could understand each other more easily.
Thus Koine Greek, as opposed to 'attic', or 'Dorian' Greek .

[Soldier of Macedon]

Spartan, is it fair to say that Koine Greek also adopted words and characteristics that are of non-Greek origin?

[Soldier of Macedon]

In fact, could you post your reply here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=815&page=2

Don't want to go off topic on this thread

[Philosopher]

The Passover Lamb was instituted by God in the book of Exodus, when the Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians. Now God instructed Moses to prepare a Pass-Over or a Passing over, which meant that the congregation of Israel was to kill a lamb, a perfect one, and spill its blood on their doors as a sign between God and the Hebrews. For God promised that at midnight all those houses and people who did not have the blood of the Lamb on their door posts, God would destroy them. Hence, the appellation “passover,” for God passed over those who had the blood of the Lamb.

Now although this story may seem silly and like a good fictional story, there is an abundance of hidden meaning to it. Skeptics, like my friends on this forum, would say “even if this event occurred, so what? What does it prove? Everything.
In the New Testament, John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.” Jesus' blood, spirtually being sprinkled on those who convert, are protected by God and from judgment and condemnation; all those who do not have the blood are condemend to hell.

In the book of Jeremiah 31.32 “
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:8, 13

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Heb 8:9
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:10, 10:16

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Heb 8:11,12, 10:17

Now God made the first Covenant with Israel after their exodus from Egypt; God gave to Moses the Ten Commandments on Stone. But in Jeremiah, God promises a New Covenant, similar to the old one. Like the Old, the New was to require an exodus from Egypt, but this time it was Spiritual Egypt, of which the Egypt of Moses was only a shadow of the true one. And unlike the Old one, where God wrote his law on tablets of stone, in the New One we read that God would write it on their hearts. Moreover, Moses is a “type of Christ.” Moses delivered Israel out of Bondage; Jesus, the true Moses, delivered True Israel out of Bondage. Moses did what he did and his life serves as a type, a figure, an earthly example of the Heavenly one to be revealed in the time. This is the hidden text I speak of.
Now an objection to this prophecy, written over 600 years before Christ, is that the House of Israel did not convert to Christianity and therefore the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. But, my good friends, this is erroneous. For the House of Israel spoken of in the prophets is referring to the true, spiritual House of Israel, and not the physical one.

For Paul writes in the book of Galatians “and upon the Israel of God,” meaning the Christian Church.
The Jewish Israel is a type, a shadow, of the spiritual and true Israel, the Christian Church. Now the objection here is that not every Christian has God’s law written in his heart. That’s true only because there is a difference between a true Christian and one only in name. I speak of conversion. This is not to say one cannot err or sin; it is more complicated than that.
One must understand that Israel can mean a number of things. The name was originally given to the patriarch Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, and he had twelve sons, who became known as the twelve tribes of Israel. But Jacob was given that title only to serve as a picture of the heavenly and true Israel to Come. Jacob is a “type of Christ.” One of the many names of Jesus is Israel. Israel means “ruling with God,” and that is an appellation that Jesus rules with God. But Jesus had twelve disciples, just like Jacob had twelve sons; these twelve disciples are the spiritual twelve tribes of Israel, and all those converted and saved by God are part of those twelve tribes of Israel. Therefore, only the Christian Church is the true Israel; and the fleshly one in the Middle East today is an imposter.
How do we know that Israel is another name for Jesus? The prophets tell us. Isaiah 49 states “
Chapter 49
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Acts 13:47
7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
2 Cor 6:2
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

Notice here it speaks of “prisoners” those in spiritual Egypt, the human race enslaved by Sin and Satan. And here we are told that Christ would bring the whole earth to the worship of the true God, Jehovah. And that he would save non-Jews as well. Notice also it says God gave Christ as a "covenant of the people," a fact referring to the New Covenant. And notice that a Covenant or a Testament is not valid until there is a death in him who made the Testament; for a Will is valid when he who made the Will dies.

Likewise, when God created a New Covenant, he did so like the Old; in the Old Covenant, God was not able to make a Covenant with Israel until they were freed from bondage, from slavery, in Egypt. It was the Passover Lamb that redeemed Israel out of Egypt. Likewise, in the New Covenant, God was not able to make a New Covenant with the spiritual Israel until they were freed from their bondage, their slavery. What slavery? Sin. Jesus tells us that he who commits sin is in bondage to sin. And who has the power of sin? Satan. Thus, God freed spiritual Israel out of Spiritual Egypt, which represents Sin, and Pharaoh represents Satan; and this he did by the true Lamb of God, Christ on the Cross, who vanquished sin and Satan by his perfect offering for sin. After this, God was able to free his Church from bondage and put his laws on their hearts. Jeremiah the prophet tells us this 600 years before Christ when he prophesied that in the days of the Messiah true Israel was to be Saved and that people from the four corners of the Earth would come to the Church’s fold. Jeremiah 23.3-8 states “
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Notice the prophet repeats the Old Testament Exodus as being inferior to the New one, which is the true image and not the shadow. And that the Messianic Prophecy is repeated again that David’s Son would rule as the Messiah and in his days God would save Israel; and this Messiah’s name would be the “The LORD our Righteousness or Jehovah our Righteousness. For Jesus is another name for Jehovah.
How do we know that Christ was to die for humanity’s sin? The prophets and the Law tell us this. Isaiah 53, 700 years before Christ, states it so well “
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
John 12:38 Rom 10:16

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Mt 8:17
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
1 Pet 2:24
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Pet 2:25
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Acts 8:32
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Acts 8:33
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
1 Pet 2:22
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Mark 15:28 Luke 22:37

Notice in the prophecy, Jesus is called a lamb--he is the Lamb of God as John the Baptist called him 700 years later.

How can all these matters be coincidence?

[Risto the Great]

Hi Philosopher,
You did a great job presenting your argument here.
I think I better read the good book (again) ;-)