I can't tell the difference. Can You?

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3810

    I can't tell the difference. Can You?




    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3810

    #2
    It must be confessed that, though at the beginning of this century the Greeks showed more energy than any other Christian race, those who now remain in Turkey (except the islanders) are not remarkable for physical vigour or military capacity. This is, no doubt, partly due to the fact that the people who revolted against Mahmud were largely Hellenised Vlachs and Albanians, who, under the modern system, would not be regarded as Greeks.

    Turkey in Europe, page 299 by Sir Charles Eliot
    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      #3
      Name me a genuine greek of the 19th century they are all albanains,vlachs,turks or slavs.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • julie
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 3869

        #4
        Originally posted by George S. View Post
        Name me a genuine greek of the 19th century they are all albanains,vlachs,turks or slavs.
        agreed George, and that is a paradox in itself - "a genuine Greek", especially in regards to Macedonia.
        "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

        Comment

        • Wanderer
          Junior Member
          • Nov 2009
          • 48

          #5
          Originally posted by George S. View Post
          Name me a genuine greek of the 19th century they are all albanains,vlachs,turks or slavs.
          There are many.But automatically,you will discover a strange story about them,being Albanian or Vlach

          Comment

          • julie
            Senior Member
            • May 2009
            • 3869

            #6
            Originally posted by Wanderer View Post
            There are many.But automatically,you will discover a strange story about them,being Albanian or Vlach
            Sir Charles Eliot (1862–1931):
            "Clearly,the modern Greek must be of very mixed blood."
            "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #7
              Wanderer, I don't fully agree with that statement made by GeorgeS, I wouldn't say all Greeks, but I would say an extremely significant majority were. However, in the case of Macedonia, I would say all save for probably some coastal areas.

              We can get into the social-religious titles that were prevalent during the 19th century, and start making reference to 'Bulgari' and 'Romaioi', but one key thing differs that cannot be disputed; all the people referred to at times as 'Bulgari' in Macedonia spoke the same Macedonian language, so when the Macedonian identity that stemmed from commonality in geography, kinship, culture and language, was more widely and thoroughly asserted, the language didn't change. When the 'Romaioi' in Morea and the rest of what became Greece over the years began to claim a new 'Hellenic' identity that meant nothing (not geographic, not self-designation, not linguistic reference, not religious) to the peasants beforehand, much had changed, particularly the language(s) spoken by these individuals.

              So, when today's Macedonians refer to 19th century figures that were dubiously 'Bulgari' like the Miladinov brothers, or Delcev (20th cent.), they are at least making reference to people who spoke the same language as they do today.

              However, when today's Hellenes refer to 19th century figures like their first president Kondouriotes, an Albanian who could not speak Greek, and to Kottas (20th), an opportunist Macedonian who spoke Macedonian but was sponsored (and later betrayed) by the animal Karavangelis to support elements of the Patriarchate, they are making reference to people who clearly do not come from the same linguistic origin as they do. Of this type of 'Hellene' there were, and still are plenty. I know some people in Australia who claim to be Greeks but speak Macedonian with their family (they even call it Macedonian!) and not a word of Greek.
              Originally posted by Wanderer
              There are many.But automatically,you will discover a strange story about them,being Albanian or Vlach.
              Wanderer, tell us some famous figures from the 19th century that are actually Greek by native linguistic origin, where there isn't any dirt or strange stories to be had. I am genuinely interested.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Wanderer
                Junior Member
                • Nov 2009
                • 48

                #8
                Hm...The first ,that comes to my mind and offered a lot,not only to Greece but the whole humanity,and that is the best about him.George Papanicolaou his name,or the famous ''Pap test''.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #9
                  hhmm...he comes from Kymi in Euboea, they say that Euboea was populated by Albanians and Vlachs. I am not saying that he is, but if you research it you will see that in Euboea the Albanian and Vlach languages did prevail. I guess there is no way to confirm either way, so I will take your word for it, quite a famous man too.

                  Anymore? Like politicians and leaders from the war of independence?
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Wanderer
                    Junior Member
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 48

                    #10
                    You cant count,on the fact ,that at these places there were some Albanians and Vlachs.
                    Anyway,since you want from the Greek Revolution,check ...
                    Adamantios Korais
                    Athanasios Diakos
                    Emmanouel Pappas
                    Costantine Kanaris

                    There are many more,but search these ones.
                    but let me make you a question.
                    I see posts and quotes saying Kolokotronis was Arvanite or the other was Vlach and stuff like that.
                    First question:No one said that we are all ''pure'' Greeks.Everything is mixed up.In the same way,you are not ''pure'' Macedonian.
                    Second question: Doesn't tell you anything,the fact that they gave their lives for Greece.For example,I consider Lord Byron ,more Greek than me,since he gave his life for its freedom.Blood or origins ,doesnt count.Only the heart.

                    Comment

                    • Sovius
                      Member
                      • Apr 2009
                      • 241

                      #11
                      It’s my understanding that Adamantios Korais was born in İzmir, Turkey. Kara means shoreline in the Turkish language. Quite fitting, considering where Izmir is located. It would seem to me that this exceptional scholar was a Grecophonic Turk in an anthropological and, therefore, historical sense. Is there any evidence to the contrary that I’m not aware of or are you simply defining "Greek" poetically, similar to Byron?

                      Comment

                      • Wanderer
                        Junior Member
                        • Nov 2009
                        • 48

                        #12
                        Ιts Korais ,not Karais.And Kara,in turkish means black,which refers to black hair.So when you see Karagiannis or Karanikos,it means ''giannis with the black hair'' etc.
                        And what means that he was born in Izmir?Everything was under Ottoman Rule,at that time.I will use the same way of logic with yours.That means that a Macedonian that was born in TODAY'S Bulgaria's or Greece's borders is not considered Macedonian.According to you.
                        And I consider Byron ,more Greek than me,considering what he felt.And what he believed.And thats all it counts.

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Wanderer View Post
                          Second question: Doesn't tell you anything,the fact that they gave their lives for Greece.
                          Here we have an example of people giving their lives for Greece therefore qualifying them as Greeks. Notwithstanding that many spoke other languages natively. Lord Byron even gets a mention no less.

                          How can Macedonians ever compete with the dynamic definitions that Greeks use to identify themselves. Goce Delcev spoke Macedonian and fought for an independent Macedonia. He stated "Macedonia has its own interests and its own politics which belong to the Macedonians. The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria, Greece, or Serbia, can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek, or Serb, but not a good Macedonian".

                          The Greeks call him a Bulgarian.
                          The Bulgarians call him a Bulgarian (even though they sent his body to Skopje).

                          We simply cannot compete on these stupid levels.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Wanderer
                            For example,I consider Lord Byron ,more Greek than me,since he gave his life for its freedom.
                            Yes, well I can appreciate where you are coming from with such a statement, but let's talk in actual terms here, because with an approach as the above, anybody could qualify as a 'Greek'. Let's be realistic here, Byron was not a Greek, he was a British Philhellene. Greek was not his culture, not his homeland, not his language and not his blood, so he was not a Greek by any stretch. Such an attitude dangerously leaves open the door for any moron to enter the realm of 'Hellenism' which seems to be ever so fluid these days (take for example that idiot Chinesohellene racist). Seriously mate, these people (Byron and Chinesohellene) are not Greeks, so let not the Macedonians start claiming people like American missionaries, volunteers and William Gladstone as Macedonians. Let's be realistic.
                            Blood or origins ,doesnt count.Only the heart.
                            It's like saying the Greek volunteers who assisted in the massarce together with Serbs during the Yugoslav wars of the 90's, were in fact more Bosnian than the Serbs who decided to stay neutral. That's a philosophical way of viewing things, but again, not realistic.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Sovius
                              Member
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 241

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Wanderer View Post
                              Ιts Korais ,not Karais.And Kara,in turkish means black,which refers to black hair.So when you see Karagiannis or Karanikos,it means ''giannis with the black hair'' etc.
                              And what means that he was born in Izmir?Everything was under Ottoman Rule,at that time.I will use the same way of logic with yours.That means that a Macedonian that was born in TODAY'S Bulgaria's or Greece's borders is not considered Macedonian.According to you.
                              And I consider Byron ,more Greek than me,considering what he felt.And what he believed.And thats all it counts.
                              Kara also means ‘ominous’ in addition to ‘shore’ and ‘black’ in the Turkish language. As you answered my question by avoiding it, I’ll have to assume that you have no evidence to support your assertion that Korais was an ethnic Greek.

                              Perhaps ‘kör’ makes more sense in terms of speculative insinuation?

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