Listen to Macedonian Show - August 31, 2010

[Makedonska_Kafana]

http://www.3zzz.com.au/

Igor Aleksandrov

[Prolet]

Spolaj Ti RMK

I thought Aleksandrov handled himself very well in the interview he had quite a bit thrown at him. The only question that was not asked and i would think that Aleksandrov would have answered it is, Bishop Petar stated that this is how all the other Churches are registered like the Russian,Serbian,Greek Orthodox Churches the same way as Bishop Petar is looking to register MPC.

Aleksandrov, Are the other Orthodox Churches registered in the same way as to what Bishop Petar is proposing?

I was surprised by the story that Aleksandrov told on 3zzz that Bishop Petar created problems in the mid 90s when the Hellenic Community took legal action for being labeled as racists by the the Macedonian Youth Community. Why would Bishop Peter stop the churches from helping out with the legal costs when our name and identity was in question?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Prolet, are you telling me that Russian, Serbian, Greek, etc bishops legally own all of the churches in their 'sphere' as inidividuals?

[Prolet]

SOM, This was one of the questions that was asked on the MN website which was taken from Radio Ilinden.

3.ЗОШТО СИ ПРОТИВ ОВАЈ ЗАКОН И ВЕЛИТЕ ДЕКА Е ШТЕТЕН КОГА СО ОВОЈ ИСТИ ЗАКОН СЕ ИМААТ РЕГИСТРИРАНО ПОВЕЌЕ ОД 30 ВЕРСКИ ЗАЕДНИЦИ КАКО ШТО СЕ ГРЧКАТА, РУСКАТА ПРАВОСЛАВН ЦРКВА И МНОГУ ДРУГИ?

Aleksandrov went into great detail explaining the question where he was accused of siding with the Greeks. This is why i asked because i have no idea how other Churches are registered in Australia. I know that the Greek Church has similar problems with their Bishop but im not too familiar with it.

[Vangelovski]

Prolet,

Are you spreading your garbage on this thread as well? How many times to we need to go over the same issues?

[indigen]

Spolaj Ti RMK

I thought Aleksandrov handled himself very well in the interview he had quite a bit thrown at him. The only question that was not asked and i would think that Aleksandrov would have answered it is, Bishop Petar stated that this is how all the other Churches are registered like the Russian,Serbian,Greek Orthodox Churches the same way as Bishop Petar is looking to register MPC.

Aleksandrov, Are the other Orthodox Churches registered in the same way as to what Bishop Petar is proposing?

I was surprised by the story that Aleksandrov told on 3zzz that Bishop Petar created problems in the mid 90s when the Hellenic Community took legal action for being labeled as racists by the the Macedonian Youth Community. Why would Bishop Peter stop the churches from helping out with the legal costs when our name and identity was in question?

I am 100% certain YOU (the one wearing the mask of "Prolet") ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH, which has been presented numerous times, and whenever there is a post that is ILLUMINATING the truth, you DUTIFULLY MUDDY (or seek to) the topic!

Questions for you to answer, Prolet/er, are the following:
1. Is the Russian, Serbian and Greek ethnic and national identity under INTERNATIONAL ATTACK and in DANGER OF IT BEING EXTINGUISHED?
2. Has MPC- Ohridska Arhiepiskopija been (and is it now) subservient to the political masters (forces) running SRM/RM?
3. If MPC- Ohridska Arhiepiskopija (which changed its name due to political machinations instigated by Jole Karevich (aka Petar Karevski) in combination with Greek and Serbian dark anti-Macedonian forces) is subservient to the political ramkovist establishment and their Western (and other Balkan anti-Macedonian forces) OVERLORDS, do you think it is wise to hand over the LAST REMAINING ASSETS of the FREE MACEDONIANS to the SOLE CONTROL of a ROGUE ANTI-MACEDONIAN BISHOP to do as he pleases or his (political or religious) anti-Macedonian OVERLORDS want him to?

The following is a reminder of who and what we are dealing with:

ДО МЕДИУМИТЕ ВО Р. МАКЕДОНИЈА

ОТВОРЕНО ПИСМО ДО СВЕТИОТ АРХИЈЕРЕЈСКИ СИНОД НА МАКЕДОНСКАТА ПРАВОСЛАВНА ЦРКВА

ГОСПОДО ВЛАДИЦИ, дали сте свесни кон што ја водите нашата Македонска православна црква? Дали тоа несвесно го правите (досега никој не се посомневал во вашето ментално здравје), или пак тоа свесно го правите, но претходно продавајќи си ја вашата душа на душманите на Македонската православна црква т.е. на самиот ѓавол. Објаснувањата кои стасуваат дека привременото губење на автокефалноста (самостојноста) на МПЦ и враќањето кон автономија, би била само чекор назад за да се појде два чекори напред кон конечна самостојност, се лаги на владиците Петар, Наум, Тимотеј и Јован под покровителство на Поглаварот Стефан (за кого сите знаеме дека беше неканонски избран со притисоци и фалсификати). Тие лаги, за среќа, навреме беа откриени и од македонскиот народ, но и од владиците Кирил и Агатангел (фала му на Бога што имаме и такви) кои заеднички и многу гласно ги искажаа своите несогласувања со ставовите (лагите) на просрпските владици Петар (кој скоро успеа да ја уништи и Австралиско-новозеландската епархија) и заблудениот Тимотеј, како и на се погласните гркомански платеници Наум и Јован уфрлени во МПЦ за да го растурат канонскиот сојуз на македонските владици и македонскиот народ кој со години успешно се спротивставуваше на нападите на душманските комшиски (НЕ)православни цркви.

Со години не им успеваше намерата да ја уништат МПЦ, си до денешен ден кога на власт во Македонија се наоѓаат немакедонски предавници кои во договор со комшиските непријатели сакаат да ја уништат и МПЦ, но и македонската држава.

И бидејќи на македонскиот народ му е преку глава од предавства како во државата, така сега и во Црквата, наскоро ќе мора да расчисти со сите вакви ненародни елементи и конечно да го добие она за што со векови се борел, Вистинска самостојна македонска држава, но и вековита самостојна Македонска православна црква.

МАКЕДОНСКА АЛИЈАНСА
претседател,
Ѓорѓија - Џорџ Атанасоски
03.6. 2002 година*
С К О П Ј Е*

Za Potsetuvanje - MPC - nishka spogodba Maj 2002

[Prolet]

Vangelovski,

I'm a bit disappointed with your constant attacks on me, i asked Aleksandrov a reasonable question i didnt attack him in anyway. If you even bothered to listen to the 3zzz language service program, you will see that Ico initially asked this question however he went on to name other churches that will not be part of this Legislation Bill that the Bishop is presenting.

[aleksandrov]

Spolaj Ti RMK

I thought Aleksandrov handled himself very well in the interview he had quite a bit thrown at him. The only question that was not asked and i would think that Aleksandrov would have answered it is, Bishop Petar stated that this is how all the other Churches are registered like the Russian,Serbian,Greek Orthodox Churches the same way as Bishop Petar is looking to register MPC.

Aleksandrov, Are the other Orthodox Churches registered in the same way as to what Bishop Petar is proposing?

I touched on this issue in the interview, but perhaps not clearly enough.

This Bill is not about registering a Church, but about forming a special corporation to hold property on behalf of a Diocese which is purportedly not registered as a legal person in its own right. The standard way to register any non-profit or charitable organisation (including a religious organisation) in Australia is as an incorporated association or company limited by guarantee. Some Church hierarchies don't like the democratic membership rights and checks and balances that come with being registered under the standard legislation, so they ask parliament to pass a special Act establishing a statutory corporation to hold property on trust for the respective Church (which is itself not registered as a separate legal person in Australia). Such acts are usually designed to make the statutory corporation in question exempt from the standard checks and balances that apply to registered (i.e. incorporated) non-profit organisations generally.

Yes, it's true that other Churches have asked for and received special acts of this nature, where there has been sufficient community support, but it is far from true to suggest that the same act applies to all of those churches. If Petar suggests otherwise, ask him for proof.

Different religions are organised differently. If we were to accept the standard rules insisted upon by clerical hierarchies of Orthodox Churches generally, we would not have an autocephalous Macedonian Orthodox Church at all today. Orthodox churches in the Republic of Macedonia would be under Serbian jurisdiction. We would not have any Macedonian Orthodox churches in the Diaspora at all, unless they are under the jurisdiction of the Serbian, Greek, Bulgarian, Russian or some other Orthodox Church.

In fact, Petar himself believes that the autocephalous status of the Macedonian Orthodox Church is non-canonincal and that in order to become canonical the Ohrid Archdiocese must accept the jurisdiction of the Serbian Patriarch. That's what the Nish Agreement was about and that is what this Bill is ultimately designed to allow him to achieve. The worst part of it all is how dishonest and deceptive he is being with the Macedonian public about it.

Have a look at the first paragraph of the NSW Government's submission to the Inquiry into the the Bill here: http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/d626eb568ff2a3ddca2577810012c75f/$FILE/Submission%2092.pdf

I was surprised by the story that Aleksandrov told on 3zzz that Bishop Petar created problems in the mid 90s when the Hellenic Community took legal action for being labeled as racists by the the Macedonian Youth Community. Why would Bishop Peter stop the churches from helping out with the legal costs when our name and identity was in question?

It shouldn't surprise you at all. Petar and his NSW Deputy, Mitko Mitrev, have consistently insisted that Macedonian Orthodox Church Communities should not get involved in 'politics'. And by 'politics' they mean defending the identity and human rights and freedoms of the Macedonian people from political attack. Otherwise, they have no problem in getting involved in politics themselves when it comes to encouraging people to be subservient to the regime in the Republic of Macedonia and when it comes to signing a deal with the Serbian Church for the MOC to give up its national identity and become an Ohrid Archdiocese under the Serbian Patriarch.

Almost as soon as Petar and Mitrev settled in, they insisted that the Macedonian Orthodox church communities should not be members of the World Macedonian Congress or the Macedonian Community Council of Sydney.

I remember well a meeting in 1996 with Australia's current Attorney General, Robert McClelland, when he was only a candidate for Parliament, where Petar's deputy, Mitko Mitrev, asked him to lobby for a Macedonian Embassy in Canberra. When I added that we want an Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia and not of "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", Mitrev dismissed that as unwarranted mixing in politics, thereby compromising our position in front of McClelland.

I also remember a general meeting of the MOCC St. Petka in Rockdale, in 1996, at which bishop Petar was on one of his now trademark rants about how the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Melbourne & Victoria and other "company churches" have never accepted full canonical jurisdiction of the MOC in Macedonia. One member asked Petar if he was aware that the reason Macedonian Orthodox communities in Australia have chosen to stay legally independent and only accept spiritual jurisdiction by the Synod is the desire to remain free of Belgrade's influence. Petar angrily reacted with words to the effect: "Yes, yes, they didn't want to be under Belgrade's influence because they wanted to be under Sofia's influence." Contrast that with what Dragan Bogdanovski says here about the MOC of Melbourne of Victoria and the importance to the Macedonian national struggle of maintaining the legal and thereby political independence of the Macedonian Orthodox church communities
in Australia: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...2861398&ref=mf

Petar has consistently pursued policies that obstruct the struggle of the Macedonian people for justice, freedom, self-determination and self-reliance. Unfortunately, too many hollow chest beating VMRovci in Melbourne (and some in Perth) have chosen to stay blind to this fact, and be guided by their petty vindictiveness and spitefulness against some veterans of the independently Macedonian movement in Australia. As a result, contributions to the Macedonian cause by the church communities in which Petar has gained despotic control have almost completely ceased. I don't think that the judgement of history will be very kind to those Macedonian 'activists' who have ignorantly or knowingly colluded to bring that situation about, and especially those who continue to persist with that direction even now, when it should be clear to any interested person of average intelligence that Petar's campaign is an antithesis to the Macedonian cause of freedom and justice.

[aleksandrov]

Page 4, Part 2, Clause 5:

(1) There is constituted by this Act a CORPORATION under the CORPORATE name of the Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust.

(2) The Trust is to consist of the following members:

(a) the Metropolitan.
(b) the Deputy Bishop,
(c) a representative from the monasteries of the Church, who is APPOINTED BY THE METROPOLITAN,
(d) the Diocesan Secretary,
(e) 2 clerics of the Church, being current members of the Diocesan Ruling Committee, who are APPOINTED BY THE METROPOLITAN,
(f) the deputy president of the Diocesan Assembly,
(g) 3 lay persons, being current members of the Diocesan Ruling Committe, who are APPOINTED BY THE BISHOP.

Page 4, Part 2, Clause 7:

(1) The functions of the Trust are as follows:

...

(d) to mortgage, charge or otherwise encumber trust property,
...
(g) to do and suffer ALL OTHER THINGS (whether or not of the kind referred to in this section) that the Metropolitan considers to be necessary, appropriate or desirable,
(h) to do and suffer all other things that BODIES CORPORATE may, by law, do and suffer and that are necessary for or incidental to the exercise of its functions under this Act.


Page 6, Part 2, Clause 13, Arrangements for OTHER CHURCHES to use trust property

(1) In this section, scheme of co-operation means a scheme entered into by the Trust:

(a) with or involving a CHURCH OF ANOTHER DENOMINATION or ANY CONGREGATION OR ACTIVITY of such a church, and

(b) concerning the use of trust property.

Page 7, Part 2, Clause 14 Trusts may be varied

(1) The Trust may by resolution declare that, IN ITS OPINION, it has become impossible or INEXPEDIENT to carry out or observe the terms of a trust of property vested in it, whether as to its purpose or any other of its terms.

(2) The Trust may, by the same or later resolution, DECLARE THAT THE PROPERTY IS SUBJECT TO ANOTHER TRUST and, on the making of such declaration:

(a) THE TRUST THAT IS TO REPLACED CEASES, and
(b) THE PROPERTY IS TO BE HELD SUBJECT TO ANOTHER TRUST.

[julie]

Aleksandrov, you are working very hard for the Macedonian people and I cant thank you enough for the time and effort you are putting on, and appreciatewhat you are doing, bless you brother

[aleksandrov]

Thank you for the moral support, Julie.

I hope that the people on this forum who are as outraged about this oppressive and unjustifiable Bill as we are will take a few minutes to send a brief message of support for the submission by the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia to the Committee conducting the Inquiry: [email protected]

[Prolet]

Aleksandrov, Thank you for the response

[Mikail]

Aleksandrov, you are working very hard for the Macedonian people and I cant thank you enough for the time and effort you are putting on, and appreciatewhat you are doing, bless you brother

I second this! Thank you!

[aleksandrov]

http://www.3zzz.com.au/
Igor Aleksandrov

Ico has now made things a little easier, Prolet.

Part One of the interview (a little section at the end has been lost):

YouTube - Intervju Ico Najdoski Perin so Igor Aleksandrov prv del

Part Two:

YouTube - Intervju Ico Najdoski Perin so Igor Aleksandrovl vtor del

Part Three:

YouTube - Intervju Ico Najdoski Perin so Igor Aleksandrov tret del

[Makedonska_Kafana]

He had originally asked me; however, it's very hard to upload one hour program on Youtube ie. 1 of 6 without access to the original tape. Would have to record then upload.