Related Balkan Tribes

[Soldier of Macedon]

Strabo makes the Thracian origins of Macedonia clear in his books. He also reveals alot more information in terms of relations between the various 'barbarian' peoples.

They gave the name of Upper Macedonia to the country about Lyncestis, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimia. Later writers called it Macedonia the Free, and some extend the name of Macedonia to all the country as far as Corcyra, at the same time assigning as their reasons, the mode of cutting their hair, their language, the use of the chlamys, and similar things in which they resemble the Macedonians; some of them, however, speak two languages. On the dissolution of the Macedonian empire, they fell under the power of the Romans. Book 7, Chapter 7,8.

In the above quote by Strabo there is a clear statement of linguistic relations between the Macedonians and the Epirote, and some can even speak 'two languages', leaving little doubt that the first would be the native 'barbarian' tongue while the latter would be either Greek or less likely Latin. The below quote supports the fact of linguistic relations among the 'barbarians' beginning north of 'Greece' and stretching beyond the Danube, the exact same situation with today's Slavic-speaking people.

.............but if he should say they were but an invention, as there were no Mysians in Thrace, he will be guilty of a palpable misstatement, for even in our own times Aelius Catus has removed from the opposite side of the Danube into Thrace fifty thousand Getae, who speak a language cognate with the Thracian. They still inhabit the very spot, and pass by the name of Moesi. Book 7, Chapter 3, 10.

The Getae are linguistically related to the Thracians and they have historically live along and beyond the Danube. During Roman times, the author Jordanes describes names such as Gradivus, Filimer, Thuidimer, Valamir and Vidimer for the Getae, whom he calls Goths, and speak of Macedonian lands as the place that some of the Getae inhabit.

....Thiudimer the king, perceiving his own good fortune and that of his son, was not content with this alone, but set forth from the city of Naissus, leaving only a few men behind as a guard. He himself advanced to Thessalonica, where Hilarianus the Patrician, appointed by the Emperor, was stationed with his army. When Hilarianus beheld Thessalonica surrounded by an entrenchment and saw that he could not resist attack, he sent an embassy to Thiudimer the king and by the offer of gifts turned him aside from destroying the city. Then the Roman general entered upon a truce with the Goths and of his own accord handed over to them those places they inhabited, namely Cyrrhus, Pella, Europus, Methone, Pydna, Beroea, and another which is called Dium.

Theophylact Simocatta openly calls the Slavic tribes that were attacking the Roman establishment within the Balkans as 'Getae', his intentions perfectly clear, "for this is the older name for the barbarians." In another passage with reference to another Slavic attack against the Romans, he states the following:

As for the Getae, that is to say the herds of Sclavenes, they were fiercly ravaging the regions of Thrace………….

A distinctive pattern emerges here which reveals much closer ties among the barbarians on both sides of the Danube, and it is significant to note that the Slavic tribes that were attacking the Romans were identified as one in the same as the Getae (Thracians). Another peculiar link can be seen in the example of how the name of some Slavic tribes came to also represent a 'Slave' in Roman terminology, largely due to the amount of slaves that were taken by the Romans from the areas around the Balkans, Danube and adjacent regions. Here is what Strabo says in relation to the name of the Getae in a similar context:

There was, from ancient times, another division of these people which still exists; thus, some they call Dacians and others Getae: the Getae extend towards the Euxine and the east, but the Dacians are situated on the opposite side towards Germany and the sources of the Danube, whom I consider to have been called Daci from a very early period. Whence also amongst the Attics the names of Getae and Davi were customary for slaves. This at least is more probable than to consider them as taken from the Scythians who are named Daae, for they live far beyond Hyrcania, and it is not likely that slaves would be brought all that way into Attica. It was usual with them to call their slaves after the name of the nation from whence they were brought, as Lydus and Syrus, or else by a name much in use in their own country, as, for a Phrygian, Manes or Midas; for a Paphlagonian, Tibius. Book 7, Chapter 3, 12.

This is an extremely interesting parallel that deserves attention, as the people of the same regions underwent the same events. Given the much larger amount of territory inhabited by Slavic-speaking people than any other linguistic group in Europe, and the linguistic relations and continuim shared by the ancient Balkan peoples, probability points to a large native group of people (speaking a language that at some point in time during the 6th-9th centuries came to be commonly referred to as Slavic - From Slovo = Word) are living now, where they have always been.

[TerraNova]

They gave the name of Upper Macedonia to the country about Lyncestis, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimia. Later writers called it Macedonia the Free, and some extend the name of Macedonia to all the country as far as Corcyra, at the same time assigning as their reasons, the mode of cutting their hair, their language, the use of the chlamys, and similar things in which they resemble the Macedonians; some of them, however, speak two languages. On the dissolution of the Macedonian empire, they fell under the power of the Romans. Book 7, Chapter 7,8.

The last passage obviously has nothing to do with Upper Macedonia- Orestis,Lyncestis,Elimia Pelagonia.
It speaks about WHY some extend the name Macedonia beyond Upper Macedonia-AS FAR AS CORCYRA (=Corfu ).
These borders fit to Perfectura Macedonia too of the Romans.

The lands from Ohrid to Adriatic were inhabited by Illyrians.

So two (or both as is better translated) means Illyrian and Greek.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The last passage obviously has nothing to do with Upper Macedonia- Orestis,Lyncestis,Elimia Pelagonia.

You may want to re-read it again.

They gave the name of Upper Macedonia to the country about Lyncestis, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimia. Later writers called it Macedonia the Free, and some extend the name of Macedonia to all the country as far as Corcyra, at the same time assigning as their reasons, the mode of cutting their hair, their language, the use of the chlamys, and similar things in which they resemble the Macedonians; some of them, however, speak two languages. On the dissolution of the Macedonian empire, they fell under the power of the Romans. Book 7, Chapter 7,8.

It speaks about WHY some extend the name Macedonia beyond Upper Macedonia-AS FAR AS CORCYRA (=Corfu ).

Yes it does, and the reason for this, as Strabo says, is the similar language of the Macedonians and the people as far as Corcyra.

The lands from Ohrid to Adriatic were inhabited by Illyrians.

Is Pelagonia between Ohrid and the Adriatic? Is Lyncestis?

So two (or both as is better translated) means Illyrian and Greek.

Native and common language is one as explained by Strabo, the other could be Greek or Latin.

[Sarafot]

They gave the name of Upper Macedonia to the country about Lyncestis, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimia. Later writers called it Macedonia the Free, and some extend the name of Macedonia to all the country as far as Corcyra, at the same time assigning as their reasons, the mode of cutting their hair, their language, the use of the chlamys, and similar things in which they resemble the Macedonians; some of them, however, speak two languages. On the dissolution of the Macedonian empire, they fell under the power of the Romans. Book 7, Chapter 7,8.

The last passage obviously has nothing to do with Upper Macedonia- Orestis,Lyncestis,Elimia Pelagonia.
It speaks about WHY some extend the name Macedonia beyond Upper Macedonia-AS FAR AS CORCYRA (=Corfu ).
These borders fit to Perfectura Macedonia too of the Romans.

The lands from Ohrid to Adriatic were inhabited by Illyrians.

So two (or both as is better translated) means Illyrian and Greek.

I expalin about squips,you know it is 3000 pages large book here in Slovenia and here is written ILIRIANS are Serbs Croats and Slovenians,that is why they could understand ich other with Macedonians,similar like today,and gues what,simbol of ILIRIA was moon and star same like turkish,but diferent color,no evidence of last one befour 1400.

[Daskalot]

I expalin about squips,you know it is 3000 pages large book here in Slovenia and here is written ILIRIANS are Serbs Croats and Slovenians,that is why they could understand ich other with Macedonians,similar like today,and gues what,simbol of ILIRIA was moon and star same like turkish,but diferent color,no evidence of last one befour 1400.

You are absolutely correct Sir!

[Pelister]

Isn't it interesting how far Macedonia extended in Strabo's time. I find it interesting how he calls north of the Danube - Thrace. More intersting how the people here go by various names Scythians, Getae, Goths, and yet they speak the same langauge as the Thracians and have the same customs as the Macedonians. Later the same people are called Sclaveni.

[TerraNova]

Isn't it interesting how far Macedonia extended in Strabo's time. I find it interesting how he calls north of the Danube - Thrace. More intersting how the people here go by various names Scythians, Getae, Goths, and yet they speak the same langauge as the Thracians and have the same customs as the Macedonians. Later the same people are called Sclaveni.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Is there a point to your confusion, or are you becoming a little more self-aware of your plastic origins?

[Daskalot]

Is there a point to your confusion, or are you becoming a little more self-aware of your plastic origins?

TerraNova is of the delusion that he is the only direct descendant from the Ancient Macedonians but statistically he should be from Asia Minor or in plain English Turkey.......

[Sarafot]

Isn't it interesting how far Macedonia extended in Strabo's time. I find it interesting how he calls north of the Danube - Thrace. More intersting how the people here go by various names Scythians, Getae, Goths, and yet they speak the same langauge as the Thracians and have the same customs as the Macedonians. Later the same people are called Sclaveni.

See in all old books it is writen SCLAVENI,perheps SC is like BV in west and east(visantium) or like DZ (Ѕ)....Western slavs,reject that opinion they think it is like SLOVENI,slovo the one who was learned how to reed,you know slovo-bukva,buth the word sclaveni is clear SLAVENI,it mens ''tia što bile slaveni'' the one which were famus, even in old language it is called BUKVA and long after that it was called SLOVO!!
And if you think,which were famus in that time??ROMANS and MACEDONIANS,so if Romans(Bisantian Greeks) were on power then,who was their bigest enemy??

And when you mention the Goths,how about Visigoths?(Goths from Bisantium)or Tracians from Bisantium?Just sugesting?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Western slavs,reject that opinion they think it is like SLOVENI,slovo the one who was learned how to reed,you know slovo-bukva,buth the word sclaveni is clear SLAVENI,it mens ''tia što bile slaveni'' the one which were famus, even in old language it is called BUKVA and long after that it was called SLOVO!!

Sarafot, Western Slavs are not the only group who support that probability, if in Latin and/or Greek it is written as only SCLAVENI, you have to keep in mind that in the Macedonian language of Cyril and Methodius it was written as SLOVEN'SKI. This could have also been a simple reference to "The language", or "The speech" among the people on both sides of the Danube, which implies a collective commonality and also a clearly established link to the word SLOVO. What are your thoughts?

[Sarafot]

Sarafot, Western Slavs are not the only group who support that probability, if in Latin and/or Greek it is written as only SCLAVENI, you have to keep in mind that in the Macedonian language of Cyril and Methodius it was written as SLOVEN'SKI. This could have also been a simple reference to "The language", or "The speech" among the people on both sides of the Danube, which implies a collective commonality and also a clearly established link to the word SLOVO. What are your thoughts?

No it das not,it is SLAVJANI not SLOVENI,so it could not be slovo from SLAVJA,posible is only SLAVA,also Methodius say, we will spred language of gloryus Salonica,so in that way it will be Greek language right?But is not,if that will be so then we all would be speak Koine (modern greek) today.
Russians say Slavs comed from Carpati and they bring the books and letther with them,so on wich side were Carpati mountings for them,when we all know where was written first Cirilic azbuka(not alphabeth)becouse is (az buki vedi).....long story but for shure it is SLAVJANI not SLOVENI,Sloveni comes much later...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Брате, со тоа не се согласвам, читаи долу:

......и поимъ братъ свои игуменъ Мефедии иди же, ви бо есть Селуненина, да Селунене вьси чьсто словаеньски бесаедують.....


That is how the original is written Sarafot. And as to which came first, Sloveni or Slavjani, it would again most likely depend on the source. What I do know for sure is that the Life of SS Methodius (Житие Методи) writes Sloveni, and this is a native piece of writing from Macedonia in the 9-10th century.

[Delodephius]

In original it says: СЛОВѢНЄ. That is how the Duke of Moravia Rastislav called his people and himself and that is how the language of Cyril and Methodius was called: СЛОВѢНЬСКЪ.

[Delodephius]

The Name of the Old Slavonic Language

§19. In the oldest written documents of the 9th and 10th century – Slavonic, Greek and Latin – Old Slavonic is simply called: SLAVONIC.

From the Slavonic sources – in the biographies we find only the general designation словѣньскъ: ѩзыкъ словѣньскыи, кънигы словѣньскыѩ, ростиславъ кънѧзь словѣньскъ and like.

In the Greek biography of St. Clement we find: ΤΑ ΣΘΛΟΩΕΝΙΚΑ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΑ.

In the Latin sources: LINGUA SCLAVINICA, SCLAVINISCA, SCLAVINA.

In science this term has not been accepted from the very beginning – for two reasons:
a) because it is completely unspecific: it can represent any Slavic language or all of them;
b) because this name is already used by two of the Slavic language: slovenski jezik = Slovenian and slovenský jazyk = Slovak.

§20. Consequently with different understanding about the origin and territory of the Old Slavonic language the name also changed.

With the name the intent was:
1) either to point to the tribal and territorial qualification of the Old Slavonic language;
2) either to point to the character and function of the Old Slavonic language.

On the basis of the former – the term ALTBULGARISCHE SPRACHE (= Old Bulgarian language) was created by German linguists Schleicher and Leskin which today is still used ONLY by Bulgarian linguists.

The weak points for this term are: - Old Bulgarian can cause an impression of the language of the old Turanian or Turkic Bulgars who still haven't melded with the Slavic speakers in the 9th century; - it doesn't explain the Macedonian character of the Old Slavonic language, thus it doesn't give an accurate impression about the tribal qualification of the Old Slavonic language; - it presents a wrong impression that the Modern Bulgarian language is a further development of the Old Bulgarian language; - it cannot be used to designate all Old Slavonic texts; - it doesn't give the impression about the Old Slavonic language as a written language and Old Slavonic as a sacral language.

§21. On the basis of the same intent another term was created: ALTSLOVENISCHE SPRACHE = Old Slovenian language; lingua paleoslovenica.

That term was used by Miklošič till the end of his life.
Today it is completely abandoned because it gives a wrong impression about the origin of the Old Slavonic language.

§22. On the basis of the second intent: the term OLD CHURCH SLAVONIC was introduced by Vondrak and use it to mark the language of the 9th and 10th century Old Slavonic monuments, the language of the monuments that form the so-called Old Slavonic canon.

This term became fairly domesticated in science (in Germany, Poland, etc.).

§23. The term OLD SLAVONIC was introduced by Fortunatov and the Russian linguistic school.
This is a linguistical term: to embrace the oldest state of the Slavic languages. It embraces all Old Slavonic texts, of all colours and dialects and has a wide application.

Russian: старословянский язык.
Polish: język staroslowiánski.
The Czechs have coined a term going from the old name: jazyk staroslověnský.


НИКОЛИЋ Светозар: Словенски језик І: Правопис, гласови, облици; Требник - Београд, 2002.