Objective Moral Values

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    Objective Moral Values

    Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
    I do want to make one point about objective moral values, which you attempt to use (in a perverted way) to argue the non-existance of God (which is in fact what you are doing). If God did not exist, then objective moral values would not exist. Any moral view would be subjective (such as veiws on the holocaust). Nothing would be either inherently good or evil, it would only be subjective personal opinion. In which case, all of your attempts to provide moral value (such as justice, loyalty to country etc) would be completely irrelevant as no such thing would exist. Loyalty to people and country, for example, would hold no value whatsoever and it would neither be bad to be a traitor nor good to be a patriot. The fact that we even have objective moral value is one proof of God's existence. Without God to tell us what is morally good and evil, there is no other foundation for objective moral value.
    A very interesting observation worthy of its own discussion in my opinion.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
  • Vangelovski
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 8531

    #2
    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    A very interesting observation worthy of its own discussion in my opinion.
    One I'd love to have in an honest manner
    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      #3
      Objective Moral Values

      An interesting thread with relevance to a country in need of direction.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        #4
        Thanks for bringing this up Vangelovski.
        I think we in the Diaspora can often diminish the significance of religion given its limited role in secular countries such as Australia.

        We keep hearing of countries or nations being built from from strong Christian values. I think it is safe to say Macedonians in Macedonia are far more religious (or at least observe religion) than the Macedonians in the Diaspora.

        Looking at subjective personal opinions as opposed to objective moral values stemming from religion, it seems everyone has an opinion and that religion helps far more in terms of social cohesion.

        If we follow Christianity or Islam to their logical conclusions, nations would be of no significance in my opinion. So we are talking about something of benefit to Macedonia being a more national focused religion I would imagine.

        I guess I am wondering how a country with strong Christian values places its nation ahead of others?
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • Vangelovski
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 8531

          #5
          RtG,

          I'm not sure about Islam, but Christianity certainly has a place for nations. God established them, so who are we to renounce them? Further, God has given humans inalienable rights (natural rights) and inalienable responsibilities (natural responsibilities). Our national rights stem from these individual rights.

          You made a point about a 'national focused religion'. I'm not quite sure what you mean by it, certainly you can't 'nationalise' faith in God. Perhaps you mean applying Biblical principles (natural law) to our political system and statutory laws?

          I'm not sure which Christian values you are referring to when asking the question of how we can place our nation ahead of others?

          In relation to objective moral values, they have a much deeper significance for Macedonia in that without them, we will never fix problems such as corruption, and quite frankly, everything else that is wrong with Macedonia.

          I think that you will find that 'secular' countries such as Australia and the US are in fact founded upon Christian principles and continue to (more or less) be guided by them. Our political systems and statutory law are based on them to a large extent (though there are obvious failings in some areas).

          As for Macedonians being "religious", I think Daniel the Great hit the nail on the head with that one on the other thread - most have no idea what their faith is about (in which case I'm not sure how they can have faith if they don't know/understand what it is they supposedly believe) and only attend Church and go through the motions as part of their social experience and interaction with other Macedonians. They seem to completely forget the God part of the equation.
          Last edited by Vangelovski; 02-22-2011, 09:16 PM.
          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

          Comment

          • osiris
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1969

            #6
            Can anyone define which values are christian and which nation adhered to those values

            Comment

            • Vangelovski
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 8531

              #7
              I just wanted to point out a common misconception. Some people, even those that believe God exists, try to ignore him for whatever reason. They do so at their own peril.

              I've noticed a reluctance in some on this forum to put God at the centre of their lives because they have a misconception that it means renouncing your country and your people. Its actually quite the opposite. By putting God at the centre of your life you realise just how many responsibilities you have towards your country and your people and how significant they are. We are obliged to have a positive influence on both our country and our people.

              Having said that, our overriding loyalty is to God. And I see no contradiction to this - why would you be obidient and/or loyal to a government, law or person that opposes Biblical principles? A government, law or person that opposes God is in fact opposing you and your inalienable natural rights!
              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8531

                #8
                Originally posted by osiris View Post
                Can anyone define which values are christian and which nation adhered to those values
                I'll start with one. Murder is wrong (and don't get it mixed up with a 'just' kill - that one has been done to death and is not an honest debate). All nations adhere to this objective moral value, even non-Christian ones. That is why it is an objective moral value and can only have been instituted by God.
                Last edited by Vangelovski; 02-22-2011, 10:11 PM.
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • Risto the Great
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 15658

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                  You made a point about a 'national focused religion'. I'm not quite sure what you mean by it, certainly you can't 'nationalise' faith in God. Perhaps you mean applying Biblical principles (natural law) to our political system and statutory laws?
                  No, I was talking about "Macedonian Orthodox" versus "Orthodox" as a means of distinguishing our nation and also favouring our nation's interests. I know it is absurd but the following point explains why I have a dilemma.


                  Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                  I'm not sure which Christian values you are referring to when asking the question of how we can place our nation ahead of others?
                  Referring back to my previous point, in the interest of good Christian practice, we should love our neighbours. When 2001 occurred, nobody was going to get killed if Macedonia signed away its sovereignty. So if God established nations, how is that reconciled with loving your neighbour. A true Christian in my mind would say "here, we are Macedonians, we will change our constitution to afford you rights that will not kill us, go ahead you deserve rights". The alternative is to kill every last one of the terrorists who helped destroy the Macedonian Nation. Which is more Christian like?

                  Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                  As for Macedonians being "religious", I think Daniel the Great hit the nail on the head with that one on the other thread - most have no idea what their faith is about (in which case I'm not sure how they can have faith if they don't know/understand what it is they supposedly believe) and only attend Church and go through the motions as part of their social experience and interaction with other Macedonians. They seem to completely forget the God part of the equation.
                  I think they have a far greater chance of subscribing to Christian doctrines than most of us in the West.
                  Risto the Great
                  MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                  "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                  Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                  Comment

                  • fyrOM
                    Banned
                    • Feb 2010
                    • 2180

                    #10
                    Where does logic and human nature fit into the picture. In the bible God can smite x dead in an instant for being wicked or evil yet today evil people do great evils and appear to get away with it…is God getting old and moving a bit slower. I believe in God but that’s beside the point. I would counter many of our moral values are a learned response to social conditioning.

                    Man is a social creature that needs human contact both for mental and physical health. As a social creature he then needed to develop rules by which to interact with other people many of whom are based on what is fair and reasonable and equitable. Failure to adhere to the social norms meant being outcast which was certain death. This is still the case today.

                    Comment

                    • Vangelovski
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 8531

                      #11
                      Originally posted by OziMak View Post
                      Where does logic and human nature fit into the picture. In the bible God can smite x dead in an instant for being wicked or evil yet today evil people do great evils and appear to get away with it…is God getting old and moving a bit slower. I believe in God but that’s beside the point. I would counter many of our moral values are a learned response to social conditioning.

                      Man is a social creature that needs human contact both for mental and physical health. As a social creature he then needed to develop rules by which to interact with other people many of whom are based on what is fair and reasonable and equitable. Failure to adhere to the social norms meant being outcast which was certain death. This is still the case today.
                      But that does not explain the existance of objective moral values. What you describe are only subjective moral values. For instance, the Nazi's decided that it was fair and reasonable to murder millions of people in death camps. Without God, it cannot be argued that the holocaust was wrong or evil - it was simply a matter of 'social conditioning' and what was right for that particular society at that particular time. However, we know that that was wrong and evil based on our God-given objective moral values.
                      Last edited by Vangelovski; 02-22-2011, 10:25 PM.
                      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                      Comment

                      • fyrOM
                        Banned
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 2180

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                        I'll start with one. Murder is wrong (and don't get it mixed up with a 'just' kill - that one has been done to death and is not an honest debate). All nations adhere to this objective moral value, even non-Christian ones. That is why it is an objective moral value and can only have been instituted by God.
                        I don’t believe it does prove it. Think of people needing to live in a society. Sometimes people can accidentally…sometimes otherwise…step on each others toes. Would you want to live in a society where if one of your loved ones…stop kidding yourself their not angels…did some transgression against another person then that person had the right to kill them on the spot. Ofcourse not and hence why we have the moral judgment murder is wrong but justified killing is not. A logical atheist could reach this same conclusion.

                        Comment

                        • osiris
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1969

                          #13
                          The Buddhist Religion doesn't need a Diety to underpin its very strong moral code
                          Last edited by osiris; 02-22-2011, 10:37 PM.

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8531

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                            No, I was talking about "Macedonian Orthodox" versus "Orthodox" as a means of distinguishing our nation and also favouring our nation's interests. I know it is absurd but the following point explains why I have a dilemma.

                            Referring back to my previous point, in the interest of good Christian practice, we should love our neighbours. When 2001 occurred, nobody was going to get killed if Macedonia signed away its sovereignty. So if God established nations, how is that reconciled with loving your neighbour. A true Christian in my mind would say "here, we are Macedonians, we will change our constitution to afford you rights that will not kill us, go ahead you deserve rights". The alternative is to kill every last one of the terrorists who helped destroy the Macedonian Nation. Which is more Christian like?

                            I think they have a far greater chance of subscribing to Christian doctrines than most of us in the West.
                            Loving your neighbour does not mean letting them kill you or violate your own rights. Nor are all of the "rights" sought by Albanians actually "rights" as opposed to special privaleges with no basis in anything.

                            In relation to a "Macedonian Orthodox" church and an "Orthodox" or any other Christian church, as long as they faithfully teach God's Word, I don't see a problem.
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8531

                              #15
                              Originally posted by OziMak View Post
                              I don’t believe it does prove it. Think of people needing to live in a society. Sometimes people can accidentally…sometimes otherwise…step on each others toes. Would you want to live in a society where if one of your loved ones…stop kidding yourself their not angels…did some transgression against another person then that person had the right to kill them on the spot. Ofcourse not and hence why we have the moral judgment murder is wrong but justified killing is not. A logical atheist could reach this same conclusion.
                              But there are societies in which murder was ok, for example, the Nazi regime. You have not answered why the murder of millions was morally wrong if God does not exist to provide us with objective moral values? If moral value is subjective based on social conditioning, then for the Nazi's, murder could subjectively be good!
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

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