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-   -   Albanianization in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837)

Vangelovski 09-12-2012 11:04 PM

[quote=vicsinad;133697]Anyway, I simply think that Vangelovski was over-exaggerating the ramifications of that particular section of the OFA. Because I suggest that one "principle" may not be as damaging, irrational and unjust as some have pointed it out to be does not suggest anything about any of my other views on any other part of the OFA.[/quote]The ramifications are exactly as I have stated them. I even provided a simple example of how DUI has used the Badinter Principle for their own political aspirations and Albanian nationalist interests. One of the deals they made with Gruevski, by using the Badinter Principle to essentially blackmail him (though that does not excuse him), was the amnesty for Albanian terror suspects and wanted war criminals. Yet another point you are unable to address.

Soldier of Macedon 09-13-2012 03:55 AM

[QUOTE="vicsinad"]If this is not in place, then it is possible that the Macedonian majority, through the legislative process, could easily revoke any protection for Albanian cultural/language rights that the state has, especially if hardline-nationalist Macedonians come into office.[/QUOTE]
Does that mean you agree with the FA? Did ethnic Albanians not have all necessary minority rights which protected their culture and language prior to 2001?
[QUOTE="Epirot"]By the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic.[/QUOTE]
Are Albania, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria any different? All of Macedonia's neighbouring states have multiple ethnicities. And each of them have a majority ethnicity that regards their state as a national homeland in which their language and culture prevail above the rest. If you're looking for something more, then look to Albania, not Macedonia.
[QUOTE]Macedonian patriots who struggled against Ottomans have always called for general mobilization of both Macedonians, Albanians and local Turks because Macedonia at that time were profoundly multi-ethnic. Even the Krushevo short lived Republic recognized Albanians as equal with Macedonians.[/QUOTE]
That is because the Macedonian people have a good nature. Those calls fell on deaf ears anyway. Many of your 'fighting' ancestors in Macedonia during the same period were too busy helping the Ottomans rape and pillage. Can you name any ethnic Albanians that willingly fought for an independent Macedonian state?

George S. 09-13-2012 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by Epirot
By the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic.Yes but minorities weren't after secession rights.The last thing holding the albanians was a a lack of macedonian language.Now they do not need to learn it at all that's how much they respect of macedonian language/culture/etc.
Can anyonename me a democracy where this sort of thing is happening & minorities do not learn the majorities language.Why not ask to change the name from macedonia to albania.Albanians in amacedonia want the absurd & unthinkable.The way things are going anything is possible.

vicsinad 09-13-2012 07:21 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;133699]The ramifications are exactly as I have stated them. I even provided a simple example of how DUI has used the Badinter Principle for their own political aspirations and Albanian nationalist interests. One of the deals they made with Gruevski, by using the Badinter Principle to essentially blackmail him (though that does not excuse him), was the amnesty for Albanian terror suspects and wanted war criminals. Yet another point you are unable to address.[/QUOTE]

First, the Badinter Principle did not force Gruevski to make a deal concerning amnesty for terrorists. They still needed the majority votes. When you're concerned more about maintaining power than serving the people, dirty politics is the name of the game and it doesn't matter how perfect your governing system is, it doesn't matter whether the Badinter Principle is in place or not.

Second, because certain Albanians and a political party are abusing the Badinter Principle (with regards to its implementation on local levels), it does not mean the Badinter Principle has created civic inequality. If anything, what's creating inequality is the corruption among the political parties and their quest to use the "ethnic card" to maintain divisions among the people to further their own agendas. For example, amnesty for terrorists was not so much about advancing the Albanian cause as it was about one man protecting (or returning a favor to) a handful of other men who helped him and his party get to power.

Vangelovski 09-13-2012 07:46 AM

[quote=vicsinad;133711]First, the Badinter Principle did not force Gruevski to make a deal concerning amnesty for terrorists. They still needed the majority votes. When you're concerned more about maintaining power than serving the people, dirty politics is the name of the game and it doesn't matter how perfect your governing system is, it doesn't matter whether the Badinter Principle is in place or not.

Second, because certain Albanians and a political party are abusing the Badinter Principle (with regards to its implementation on local levels), it does not mean the Badinter Principle has created civic inequality. If anything, what's creating inequality is the corruption among the political parties and their quest to use the "ethnic card" to maintain divisions among the people to further their own agendas. For example, amnesty for terrorists was not so much about advancing the Albanian cause as it was about one man protecting (or returning a favor to) a handful of other men who helped him and his party get to power.[/quote]vicsinad, you need to read up on your recent history. The Albanians used the Badinter Principle to block all related legislation until Gruevski made a deal to allow them into the governing coalition and accept their key policies, which included amnesty for the terror suspects. Of course Gruevski didn't need to meet their demands, but that was a case in how it was misused.

But tell us why you believe one Albanian vote should be worth more than three Macedonian votes? To protect Albanian privilege? How exactly is this 'equal'?

vicsinad 09-13-2012 08:05 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;133712]

The Albanians used the Badinter Principle to block all related legislation until Gruevski made a deal to allow them into the governing coalition and accept their key policies, which included amnesty for the terror suspects. Of course Gruevski didn't need to meet their demands, but that was a case in how it was misused.

But tell us why you believe one Albanian vote should be worth more than three Macedonian votes? To protect Albanian privilege? How exactly is this 'equal'?[/QUOTE]


Gruevski did not have to agree and the amnesty for terrorists did not have to happen. The Badinter Principle prevented related-legislation from passing, and it could have prevented amnesty had the VMRO-DPMNE not conceded and come to a deal.

It's a check to protect the minority from the majority from passing legislation that the minority thinks will harm them. However, the minority still cannot pass any legislation without a majority. Are there other ways to ensure that check? Probably, yes. But this check is not damaging to civic equality.

Vangelovski 09-13-2012 08:10 AM

[quote=vicsinad;133713]Gruevski did not have to agree and the amnesty for terrorists did not have to happen. The Badinter Principle prevented related-legislation from passing, and it could have prevented amnesty had the VMRO-DPMNE not conceded and come to a deal.

It's a check to protect the minority from the majority from passing legislation that the minority thinks will harm them. However, the minority still cannot pass any legislation without a majority. Are there other ways to ensure that check? Probably, yes. But this check is not damaging to civic equality.[/quote]You're still avoiding the key question - why do you think one Albanian vote being worth more than three Macedonian votes is "equal"?

If you can't provide a sensible answer, I'm afraid you're going on a holiday. I will not tolerate racism in any form on this forum, particularly by Macedonians who are trying to turn reality inside out and deny the blatantly obvious.

vicsinad 09-13-2012 08:20 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;133714]You're still avoiding the key question - why do you think one Albanian vote being worth more than three Macedonian votes is "equal"?

If you can't provide a sensible answer, I'm afraid you're going on a holiday. I will not tolerate racism in any form on this forum, particularly by Macedonians who are trying to turn reality inside out and deny the blatantly obvious.[/QUOTE]

I answered your question.

Vangelovski 09-13-2012 08:39 AM

[quote=vicsinad;133715]I answered your question.[/quote]No you haven't, all you've done is squirm around with some BS about minorities protecting their special privileges as if that is a legitimate cause in and of itself. You haven't even been able to identify which of these supposed "rights" (as you call them) are even legitimate rights, rather you've taken the position that anything the Albanians ask for must be acceptable and therefore the Badinter Principle necessary to protect their demands.

I'm tired of you promoting Serbian culture and defending the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement every time you turn up. You've got seven days to look at yourself in the mirror and ask what in F's name your doing before you come back.

Epirot 09-13-2012 09:48 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;133707]
Are Albania, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria any different? All of Macedonia's neighbouring states have multiple ethnicities. And each of them have a majority ethnicity that regards their state as a national homeland in which their language and culture prevail above the rest. If you're looking for something more, then look to Albania, not Macedonia.
[/QUOTE]

I'd never say that Albania is ethnically homogeneous as long as the national minorities are recognized in constitutional basis. It appears that my point was not taken properly. If I am not mistaken, the constitution of 1971 postulated Macedonia as the homeland of both Macedonians, Albanians and Turks, by declaring them as equal. Unfortunately, I am not able to find out any English version of that constitution as to elaborate in depth my point. If we are to compare the constitution of 1991, we realize that it has fundamentally changed by not taking in account the multi-ethnic being of Macedonia.

[QUOTE]
That is because the Macedonian people have a good nature. Those calls fell on deaf ears anyway.[/QUOTE]

As long as the national revival of both Albanians & Macedonians was not relied on expansionist ideas, the cooperation was to be expected. The patriots of both sides soon understood they were surrounded by aggressive nationalism (Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek ones). Many Albanian patriots were actively engaged into Macedonian uprisings. Being so, many members of Albanian committee in London supported the idea of an independent Macedonia. Even the Aubrey Herbert and Moses Gaster did their best to advocate an independent Macedonian state.

[QUOTE]Moses Gaster subsequently launched a new group called the London Macedonian Committee.

Albania's Greatest Friend: Aubrey Herbert and the Making of Modern Albania ...
By Aubrey Herbert[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]1902

Appeal of the [B][U]"National Macedonian-Albanian League[/U][/B]" Brother Macedonians! Brother Albanians! ...There is no need that the Bulgarians, the Greeks or others amend our homeland... Executive Committee British Museum (British Library), London, 1902

[url]http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Documents.html[/url][/QUOTE]

While I was child, I had a keen interest to read the books of Sterjo Spasse, a prominent Albanian writer from the Prespa region (in Albanian side). He had evoked many events from XIX'th century, especially those from Albanian guerilla fighters in southern Albania. They cooperated narrowly with Macedonian patriots in the uprisings against Ottomans. Korcha and Ohrid were the places where many important meetings were held.

In following I shall translate some fragments from an article which I found in Albanian:

[QUOTE]Todor Simovski, i cili nė punimin e tij: “Pėr pjesėmarrjen e kombėsive nė Kryengritjen e Ilindenit”, shkruan:

“…pėrpjekjet e para pėr njė shtet maqedonas filluan aty kah fundi i shekullit XIX, nėn ndikimin e lėvizjeve ēlirimtare tė popujve fqinj, tė cilėt tentonin tė ēlirohen nga sundimi shekullor osman. Kėshtu, nėn ndikimin e kėtyre lėvizjeve, edhe tek sllavo-maqedonasit u formua organizata “VMRO”, nėn ndikimin e sė cilės, nė vitin 1903, shpėrtheu Kryengritja e Ilindenit. Kryengritja kryesisht kishte karakter antiosman. Prandaj, asaj iu bashkangjitėn dhe e ndihmuan edhe Shqiptarėt. Pa ndihmėn e Shqiptarėve ajo vėshtirė se do tė kishte sukses, kur dihet se ajo u zhvillua kryesisht nė viset e banuara mė tepėr me Shqiptarė”.

Mė tej ai vazhdon: “Shqiptarėt kishin merita tė veēanta pėr Komitetin dhe kryengritjen e Ilindenit, qė ishin bartės tė sigurtė dhe tė mirė tė armėve, barutit dhe materialit tjetėr ushtarak” .[/QUOTE]

[B][U]Translation: [/U][/B]

[QUOTE]Todor Simovski in his article: 'About the participation of nationalities in Ilinden uprising" stated:

The first efforts for a Macedonian state commenced around the last decades of XIXth century, under the influence of national movements of neighboring peoples, who struggled to liberate themselves from Ottoman yoke. Under the influence of those movements, it was formed the organization of VMRO, who stirred up the revolt of Ilinden at 1903. The revolt had largely an anti-Ottoman stance. That's why many Albanians joined it. Without the help of Albanians, it would not have any success, considering that this uprising took place in regions inhabited rather by Albanians.

Then he adds: Albanians had distinguished merits about the committee of Ilinden. They carried arms along with other military ammunition.
[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE][B]Originally posted by SoM[/B]

Many of your 'fighting' ancestors in Macedonia during the same period were too busy helping the Ottomans rape and pillage. [/QUOTE]

The state of things was much more complicated than it appears in first sight or from today perspective. Some Albanians took the side of Ottomans rather to escape from poverty. Yet those Albanians were insignificant comparing to the rest who struggled against Ottomans. Also the situation in Macedonia was to be deteriorated when Serbian chetniks, Bulgarian agents as well as Greek andarts entered in Macedonia. The local population (it does not matters whether it was Macedonian, Albanian, Vlach or Turk) suffered greatly from these incursions. It would be natural to them to side with Ottomans against these agents.


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