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-   -   1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3841)

Daskalot 06-22-2011 01:23 PM

Welcome to our forum Sir George, may I ask from where in the Balkans you have your roots? :)

George S. 06-22-2011 02:46 PM

Sir George doesn't the greek govt get the shits when in the navy they start to speak
albanian.This lets the cat out of the bag as there is no homogenity in greece.SG i'm sure if you look at the history you'll see how artificially created greece was by the great powers in the 19th century.People simply became greek as long as they spoke greek.In my everyday encounters i meet a lot of greek friends like yourself they have an opinion and admit that the government of greece has gone too far not to recognize macedonia.When they should be living in harmony & sort out their differences about the past injustices greece has chosen to ignore it's peacefull neighbour.Greece has shown total disrespect whether it's recognizing macedonia or it's macedonian minority within it's borders.

Daskalot 06-22-2011 03:30 PM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;102804]Welcome to our forum Sir George, may I ask from where in the Balkans you have your roots? :)[/QUOTE]

No need to answer this question of mine Sir George, I have found the answer in a different thread. :smartass:

Onur 06-22-2011 04:01 PM

[QUOTE=SirGeorge8600;102798]It's of Turkish influence just like most cultural dress in the Balkans.[/QUOTE]

Yes, there is a Turkish influence in cultural dresses all over the Balkans but mostly in women dress, not in men. Only the word fustanella is coming from Turkish word (maybe an Arabic/Persian word) for dress, "fistan" but the dress itself definitely not related with the Turks because of a simple reason. Turkish people never wore skirt like dresses cuz you cant ride a horse with it. The men from central Asia or Eurasia was only wearing pants. Pants already invented in central Asia then it became a tradition and they never wore anything beside pants.

There is a picture of an Albanian basibozuk chief from 1880 in wikipedia page and these muslim Albanians was wearing fustanella too;

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Basibozukchief.jpg[/IMG]

It`s already quite interesting that how come an obviously Albanian men (muslim and christian) common dress became national dress of Greeks. Actually it`s not that interesting if we consider that Albanians themselves became neo-hellenes, not only their dressing habits.

SirGeorge8600 06-22-2011 06:45 PM

[QUOTE=George S.;102811]Sir George doesn't the greek govt get the shits when in the navy they start to speak
albanian.This lets the cat out of the bag as there is no homogenity in greece.SG i'm sure if you look at the history you'll see how artificially created greece was by the great powers in the 19th century.People simply became greek as long as they spoke greek.In my everyday encounters i meet a lot of greek friends like yourself they have an opinion and admit that the government of greece has gone too far not to recognize macedonia.When they should be living in harmony & sort out their differences about the past injustices greece has chosen to ignore it's peacefull neighbour.Greece has shown total disrespect whether it's recognizing macedonia or it's macedonian minority within it's borders.[/QUOTE]

To address all: if you were to even further back in time you'd see tons of Turkish culture to be Persian or Mongolian...it really is the beautiful thing of cultural anthropology. :001_smile:

As for George S. yes there is no homogeneity in Greece just as there isn't in any other country in the world...not even Iceland. It's truly fascinating, but for some reason ever since Nazism, nationalists have gotten it into their minds that in order to have a strong and united people they need to share the same Y-DNA haploid alleles... quite odd a belief if you ask me. Of course before the Nazi's people had the idea that bloodlines were influenced by God and that God loved royalty the most which was why they should have all the nice houses/palaces and money to control other people. :rolleyes1:

As for the modern day I doubt the Greek soldiers speak Albanian...and I could care less if they did...they really pissed me off in the Athens parade when they started shouting racist slogans. We must realize that during the 1800's wars against the Ottoman empire, it wasn't unlikely for there to be divisions of various ethnic soldiers from different nations...especially if they were fighting for the same cause and their borders didn't exist due to a controlling empire. Such strategy was made famous by Napoleon in Western Europe...but not full-blown.

Anyway, I don't believe the Greek government has gone [I]too [/I]far for denying Macedonians and I thank God for that. When I see to what extents other European countries have gone to in the last century to ethnically cleanse themselves and even heinous racist crimes against each other, I always say Thank God it isn't happening in the Balkans. lol, I guess it's best to keep that hate on a forum or youtube page. I wish for no innocent people to die ever as this in my opinion is the worst of climaxes.

Soldier of Macedon 06-22-2011 07:30 PM

[QUOTE="SirGeorge"]I don't believe the Greek government has gone too far for denying Macedonians and I thank God for that.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by the above? That their decisions to deny the existence of Macedonians will be reversed one day? Or what they have done isn't really that bad?

George S. 06-22-2011 08:08 PM

Sir george i don't know if you know but the macedonian minority is completely ignored in greece as the greeks claim they simply don't exist.But if you are saying that they will in thefuture recognize them that's news to us can you elaborate if that's the case.

Epirot 07-02-2011 04:45 PM

@SirGeorge8600

Hi mate,

I'm really not in a good mood to hear pointless assertions that Fustanella is a Turkish influence. There are ample evidences pointing out the very fact that Fustanella at the given period was an Albanian dress, who was adopted officially in Greece after 1830 onward.

[QUOTE]The great variety of picturesque costume which the traveller meets with throughout Greece, Albania, the coasts of Asia Minor, and the Levant, generally gives a singular charm and interest to his route. In continental Greece, not merely every province, but every district, nay, almost every town and village, has its distinctive dress: so that when the people are seen in crowds at fairs, or any common place of rendezvous, an attentive observer of their costume can tell where they all come from, without reference to anything else. This is also the case in the south of Italy, particularly in Gala-, bria, Basilicata, and Apulia, where the whole type of manners and customs is much more Grecian than Italian. [COLOR="Blue"][B]In the mountains that back and hem in northern Greece, and which are chiefly occupied by tribes descended from the great Slavonic race[/B][/COLOR], the costume is essentially different from that worn by the Greeks ; and this costume, again, is subdivided and modified according to the difference of tribes and clans. [COLOR="Red"][B]The kilt, differing only in color from that worn by the Scotch Highlanders, is common to them all; [U]and the whole dress, figure, and manner of living, of the Arnaouts, or Albanians, struck Lord Byron as bearing a striking resemblance to those of the Gaels of Scotland.[/U] These Arnaouts always wear a red shawl round the head; their neighbors, the Montenigrini, wear a yellow one; and the Chimariots, the Gegdes, and other Slavonic tribes, are distinguished, not only by a difference of color, but also by the fashion of their turbans, and the way in which they wear them.[/B][/COLOR] They all go armed ; and the importance and wealth of an Albanian may be estimated by the number of weapons he bears upon his person, and the richness of their mountings and inlayings in silver, gold, '•fid precious stones. The chief of a clan is frequently seen thus accoutred: bis long-barrelled, slim-stocked gun in his hand, four mounted pistols in his girdle, a sabre by his side, a large horn for powder, and a cartouch-box slung over his shoulder, a yataghan, and a short dagger stuck in his girdle to keep company with his pistols—in short, he is a walking mass of arms; and, though rude, undisciplined, and not worth much in an open field against regular troops, he is a dangerous enemy to encounter in irregular mountainwarfare. His taste for dress is almost as expensive as that for arms: his loose jacket is generally richly embroidered in gold; and the gyves, which descend from the knee to the ankle, and the massy clasps that fasten on his buskins or sandals, are pretty generally of the same metal, or at least richly ornamented with it. [COLOR="red"][B]The color of the kilt is white among all the tribes; and, however dirty may be the shirt, which is very seldom changed, it is the special care of the Albanian to keep the kilt spotless as new-fallen snow.[/B][/COLOR] A good deal of this care is also extended to the sheep-skin capote, which is worn, in a most graceful manner, over the right shoulder. We have been treating of a man of importance ; but all ranks of Albanians have a passion for dress and finery, and, when not absolute paupers, contrive to go smartly attired and armed. The long gun is even more indispensable than the pipe to the Turk, or an umbrella to an Englishman in rainy weather. "Thif weapon," says Mr. Hobhouse, "is to be found in every cottage in Albania: the peasant carries it with him either when he tends his flocks or tills his land. It is the weapon in which he considers himself to excel, and he regards it both as his ornament and defence. The gun-barrels, however, are thin and ill made, and the locks are of the rudest manufacture, the works being generally on the outside. Owing to this circumstance, and as the powder is large-grained, and Otherwise very bad, the Albanians are not good marksmen, although they never fire without a rest, and take a very deliber ate aim."

We fancy that, as marksmen, the Albanians vary in ability, for we saw some clans at Constantinople that fired with admirable precision. We believe, however, that the powder furnished them by the sultan was English. Their mode of practice was this: they built up a tambour of loose stones, between three and four feet high, like those the Greeks loved to fight behind during their late war, and then, dropping on the knee, rested the barrel of their piece on a stone, and fired, after taking a cool aim. Some of these fellows were about the finest specimens of limb, make, and feature, that we ever beheld; but there is an expression of cunning and ferocity in the Arnaout countenance which renders it disagreeable. Many of them, from the snowy mountains of Albania and Thessaly, were fair in complexion : some of them had light-brown hair, and not a few sandy-colored hair. They wore no hair at all on the fore-part of their heads, but suffered it to flow down behind, in large quantities, from the top of the crown; it was generally in curls, but they are said to admire it most when straight and long. These hardy mountaineers, who were then about to take the field against the Russians, evidently carried their fortunes on their backs, for every one of them had some gold or silver worked in his jacket or vest. As they are almost constantly at war, and as property is very insecure in their own turbulent country, we believe this portable, succinct mode of investing it, which also obtains among the Turks, is almost general among them.
At Smyrna, we had an opportunity of watching the proceedings of two Albanians, who had recently left the service of the pacha of Scio. With their heads turned with the comparative freedom of that great seaport, they plunged into all the dissipations it afforded, their main and capital pleasure, however, being drinking the rum and brandy carried thither by foreign ships. They had little or no money, but they paid their way in uncoined metal: one of them had a small gold chain, of which he cut off so many links a day, according to their expenses, as long as it lasted. When this was drunk out, they drew upon the mounting and inlaying of their yataghans and pistols; and when that resource was exhausted, they began to strip the embroidery from their clothes. At last, having fairly drunk all the gold and silver off their backs, they girded up their loins, slung their guns across their shoulders, and took their way into the interior of the country, to seek service from the Turkish governor of Magnesia. The only things of value they had left untouched when they departed from Smyrna were the silver mountings of their guns.
The Albanians have the practice, so common among sailors and people of various nations, of making figures on their arms and legs, by punctures which they color with gunpowder. The custom is ancient, for Strabo informs us it was prevalent among the Illyrians. They are so fond of going smart, that nearly every man among them is an adept in tailoring, and can make his own clothes. In passing an Albanian corps-de-garde, we have often been amused by seeing a sturdy, fierce-looking fellow, armed to the teeth, plying the needle with wonderful activity, and cutting and patching with the address of a professional Schneider. They almost invariably carry about their persons a small quantity of cloth, red leather, catgut, some thread, and a large needle. These articles are usually wrapped up in part of the pouch which contains their cartridges. But there is another operation one is apt to see on passing their stations, which is not so agreeable to the eye. Though so fine, they are very filthy: they generally wear their shirts and under vestments till they rot on their skin, and they swarm with vermin, which they pick from themselves or from one another in public. In addition to the red cloth skull-cap, which in form resembles the cup of an acorn, those who can afford it wear a shawl bound round the head in the turban fashion. In cold weather they draw the ends of this shawl over the ears and tie them under the chin, as will be seen in the opposite engraving.
This figure represents an Albanian soldier in all his glory; and in the days of old AH Pachathere was a strong corps of janizaries in his capital equally well dressed and splendidly appointed: the bosses on their knees and ankles were of silver filagreed, the bottom of the sandal of goatskin, the open work at the top of catgut, studded with small silver stars. The aghas and the superior officers of the Albanian janizaries were wont to have their jackets made of rich velvet, and so inlaid with gold or silver that they had almost the stiffness of a coat-of-mail. [COLOR="red"][B]"The whole Albanian costume," says Mr. Hobhouse, "when quite new and clean, is incomparably more elegant than any worn in the Turkish empire."[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR="Blue"][B]And to this we may add that [U]it has served as a model to several others of the sultan's former subjects, particularly to the Greeks of the Morea and Maina, and the mountaineers of Candia, who have copied it[/U] more or less closely, but confined the use of it to men of martial occupations.[/B][/COLOR]
Every Turkish pacha or mootzellim of any importance has, or at least used to have a few years ago, a set of fierce-looking Albanians for his body-guard.


In this way they were scattered thickly over the whole of continental Greece, with the exception of the country of the Mainotes—a people as fierce anc warlike as themselves. [COLOR="blue"][B]The partial adoption of their costume by the Greeks may have arisen from this circumstance, but it remains to be mentioned that many colonies of Albanians who, though they have lost the language and speak Greek, retain the dress, manners, and features[/B][/COLOR], of the great Slavonic stock, have been settled for many ages in the plains of Greece. [COLOR="Red"][B]Thessaly, Boeotia, Attica, and the eastern Morea, have long been full of their villages; and the men of the island of Hydra, who took so active and so noble a part in the late wars against the Turks, are of Albanian and Slavonian descent, and[U] wear the Albanian dress[/U].[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR="Blue"][B]Moreover, the Hellenic or true Greek blood, which must be looked for in its purity in the islands of the Archipelago, has been mixed up, by intermarriages with that of the Albanians, in a large part of the country, and hence would naturally arise a fusion of manners, customs, nnd dress.[/B][/COLOR] There may have been some other causes besides good taste, which would naturally give preference to such a costume: [COLOR="Red"][U][B]but this fact is certain, that most of the armed Greeks we met during the late war of independence wore the white kilt, and nearly all the rest of the Albanian dress, which was also adopted by the English general Church, when he took the command of the Grecian army.[/B][/U][/COLOR]
In the engraving of the Greek officer of Nauplia (p. 71), there is no sheepskin capote, but we have frequently seen it worn, by both officers and men, among the Greeks. In the groups of islands, the Cyclades and the Sporades, the Albanian kilt was less rarely seen; but there, as on the coast of Asia Minor, and at Constantinople, the Greeks wore loose trowsers like the Turks, but dyed blue, and had Turkish morocco boots and slippers over them instead of the buskin or sandal. This was also the case with the non-military Greeks in the Morea. The Turks prohibited them all the use of yellow slippers, and made them (under penalty of a bastinading) wear black or dingy-colored ones. This exclusion and humiliating distinction was a constant source of irritation to the Greeks, and boots and slippers had more to do in bringing about their revolution than some philosophers would imagine.
The passion for dress and finery is common to the whole Greek race, high or low. The costume of the capitani, or feudal chieftains of the mountainous and always-independent country of Maina, is or was very splendid and graceful. Mr. Morrit, in describing one of these capitani, says: "He wore a close vest with open sleeves of white and gold embroidery, and a short black-velvet mantle edged with sables. The sash which held his pistols and his poignard was a shawl of red and gold. His light-blue trowsers were gathered at the knee, and below them were close gaiters of blue cloth with gold embroidery, and silver-gilt bosses to protect the ankles. When he left the house, he flung on his shoulders a rich cloth mantle with loose sleeves, which was blue without and red within, embroidered with gold in front and down the sleeves in ihe most sumptuous manner. His turban was green and gold. . . The dress of the lower orders is in the same form, with the necessary variations in the quality of the materials and absence of the ornaments. It differed considerably from the Turks, and the shoes were made either of yellow or untanned leather, and fitted tightly to the foot. The hair was never shaved." The Grcuk females are celebrated for their love of finery and of varied attire, as may be seen in the cuts.
Scio, which stands at the mouth of the gulf of Smyrna, is one of the places distinguished for its Greek costume. In the happy days of that island, before the destroying hand of the Turk passed over it (in 1822), all classes of Greeks there dressed with exceeding elegance, for trade and industry had introduced...

[B]The wonders of the world, in nature, art, and mind ... By Robert Sears[/B][/QUOTE]

This is what I could pick up from the above quoted book:

[IMG]http://books.google.com/books?id=HZwRAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA69&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U02LvjViiLf1vJvuyg2OGKjBekOSA&ci=91%2C415%2C847%2C660&edge=0[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/95/49/70/books10.jpg[/IMG]

How fitting! A "Greek" officer of Nauplia seem entirely similar with an Albanian Janizary...Is there any brave heart among our Hellenized brothers who dare to explain that?

I am so sorry that our Hellenized southern brothers pays little attention to their official adopted dress!!! Most of our Hellenized southern brothers omitted from the true history of Fustanella because it is an evident feature of their Albanian origin. But let face them with some impartial sources written as always by western observers:

[QUOTE]... [COLOR="Red"][B]Greece commonly dressed up their children in the Albanian dress of jacket, and kilt[/B] [/COLOR]; [COLOR="Blue"][B]and this dress became also the military dress of the Greeks in their War of Independence, though it was not before that time their national dress.[/B][/COLOR]

Calcutta review: Volume 2; Volumes 94-95
University of Calcutta - 1892[/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 07-05-2011 10:45 PM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]... [B][U]Greece commonly dressed up their children in the Albanian dress of jacket, and kilt[/U][/B] ; and this dress became also the military dress of the Greeks in their War of Independence, though it was not before that time their national dress. Calcutta review: Volume 2; Volumes 94-95 University of Calcutta - 1892[/QUOTE]
The Greeks from the Albanians, and the Albanians from the Macedonians, Serbs and other Slavic-speaking peoples of the Balkans:
[QUOTE][url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=838&highlight=national+dress[/url]

The Albanians who dwell in Greece all belong to the Greek Church. They are mostly agriculturalists, and seem to care little for political or professional life. They wear a peculiar dress, [B][U]which was adopted by them mostly from the Slavs[/U][/B], and was regarded as the national costume of Greece after the Revolution.........(Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1907)[/QUOTE]

George S. 07-05-2011 11:12 PM

i found the following intersting & agree with his article of Epirot that the greeks adopted the albanian fustanella.

Language Kilt/short skirt Skirt Dress
Albanian fustanellë/fustanella fund fustan
Aromanian fustanelã fustã fustanã
Bulgarian фустанела
(fustanela) фуста
(fusta)
Greek φουστανέλλα
(foustanélla) φούστα
(foústa) φουστάνι
(foustáni)
Italian fustanella gonna
Macedonian фустан
fustan фустан
fustan фустан
fustan
Megleno-Romanian fustan fustan
Romanian rochiţă fustă rochie
Serbo-Croatian фустанела
fustanela фистан
fistan фистан
fistan
Turkish


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