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-   -   Macedonians in the East Roman Empire (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1530)

Risto the Great 07-01-2009 05:49 PM

Great thread guys.
What a wonderful collection of resources.

Bratot 07-01-2009 07:34 PM

[IMG]http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/MakSclavinians.png[/IMG]

Risto the Great 07-01-2009 07:49 PM

Don't our Greek friends say the only Slavs in Morea were the Melingoi and Ezeritae. The above text shows they were the only ones who were not subdued. Another savage blow the the (many) Greek myths.

Soldier of Macedon 07-01-2009 08:15 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;19161]Don't our Greek friends say the only Slavs in Morea were the Melingoi and Ezeritae. The above text shows they were the only ones who were not subdued. Another savage blow the the (many) Greek myths.[/QUOTE]
That is exactly right, the Peloponnese was swamped with Slavs, some happy to settle for East Roman rule, others such as the Ezerite and Melingoi were more independent by nature.

Risto the Great 07-01-2009 09:04 PM

My goodness, it would appear that Greece proper had more Slavs than Macedonia. Throw in some Venetians and Albanians ... then mix in some Turks with a hint of Vlach a little later on ... wrap them up to simmer in a Koine Orthodox tradition for a few hundred years ... and hey presto .... modern Greece.

Bratot 07-02-2009 06:30 AM

It's said that Slavs raid Crete in 623, so how can be that this Slavic presence can't be applied in same ways for the both sides?

[url]http://history.heraklion.gr/background.php?url=hp&id=1841&iid=2329&level=2&sid=2329[/url]

TrueMacedonian 07-02-2009 08:01 AM

According to NGL Hammond the Slavs settled quite a few islands. The theory that you would find "pure" descendents of ancient hellenes in the islands is another myth. Corfu is a perfect example of a multi-racial island.

Soldier of Macedon 07-02-2009 09:06 AM

[QUOTE=Bratot;19167]It's said that Slavs raid Crete in 623, so how can be that this Slavic presence can't be applied in same ways for the both sides?

[url]http://history.heraklion.gr/background.php?url=hp&id=1841&iid=2329&level=2&sid=2329[/url][/QUOTE]
Exactly the point. Just as much Slavs, if not more, invaded the area known as today's Greece. What needs to be considered is that in ancient Europe, the Thracians were the 'largest population', in medieval Europe, the Slavs were the 'largest population'. The distance between these two groups in the linguistic sense would probably be akin to the distance between Balts and Slavs today, the Thracian language did not disappear, it just evolved with a new linguistic layer from a distant, yet related element. This is also why the Slavonic tribes that settled in Macedonia and Thrace were able to assimilate into the local population within a relatively short period of time as opposed to the tribes that travelled as far south as the Peloponnese. Indeed, while the Morean Slavs were still trying to stake their claim, the Slavonic tribes that had integrated Macedonians and Thracians were already soldiers and loyal citizens of East Rome.

Soldier of Macedon 07-02-2009 10:15 AM

[url]http://books.google.com.au/books?id=InyEqBVhH-EC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=the+great+and+the+first+city+of+the+Macedonians&source=bl&ots=qU_o2PLFXV&sig=yvi9uSkzh0A3jVjehvFQG7rmNMA&hl=en&ei=DMxMSp-HEJP2sQPQkqjpBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2[/url]

[URL=http://img11.imageshack.us/i/35621732.png/][IMG]http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/566/35621732.png[/IMG][/URL]

The above can serve as clear evidence of the continued reference to people of Macedonia Proper as Macedonians (along with those of the Macedonia Theme).

Soldier of Macedon 07-02-2009 10:30 AM

[B][I][COLOR="Blue"]I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians............[/COLOR][/I][/B]

The above was written by John Cametinae. Check the below:

[url]http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/thessaloniki.htm[/url]
[QUOTE]Thessaloniki, one of the largest cities of the Byzantine empire in the early tenth century, was captured and pillaged in 904 by a Muslim force led by Leo of Tripoli. The following account of the short siege comes from John Kaminiates, who was captured and taken as a prisoner with his father and brothers. He wrote a letter to Gregory of Kappadokia while he was in captivity, concluding it around the end of September 905.[/QUOTE]

From the above link, here is an interesting excerpt from the text:

[QUOTE]They (Muslims; My Note) swooped down with their ships towards those points which had been described to them, letting out harsh and savage cries and rowing furiously in the direction of the wall. And banging on rawhide drums, they raised a fearful din, and they tried with many other kinds of bluff to frighten the defenders on the battlements. But those who were manning the wall shouted back even louder and invoked the aid of the saving weapon of the cross against the enemy forces. And they did this to such an effect that the barbarians, at the sound of so many people uttering a cry more fearsome than any they had previously heard, were dazed for a while and did not expect to achieve anything. Estimating the numbers of the citizens from the loudness of their shouts, they concluded that it would be no easy matter to enter the fray against such odds and to sack so great a city, the like of which they had never seen. Nevertheless, in order not to create the impression of having lost their nerve at the start of their offensive, they advanced neither fearlessly, nor with the rage which they later displayed, but with a certain blend of frenzy and fear, protecting themselves against their opponents by means of a barrage of missiles. Then their approach became more reckless and they strove to bring the fighting nearer, rousing themselves to fury like barking dogs and thoroughly enraged by the weapons that were hurled down at them from the wall. [U]The citizens [/U](of Salonika: My Note),[U] in fact, were anything but remiss in their use of archery, and used it to great and conspicuous effect by [B][COLOR="Blue"]stationing all the Sklavenes [a southern Slav peoples] gathered from the neighbouring regions[/COLOR][/B] at those points from which it was easiest to shoot accurately and where there was nothing to deflect the momentum of their missiles.[/U][/QUOTE]

There they are again, the Christians used 'their' neighbouring Slavs as archers - The Slavs, Macedonians, defenders of Salonika against the Muslim attack and Leo the turncoat (who converted to Islam at some stage). Note that there were no neighbouring 'Greeks' to send for.

Soldier of Macedon 07-02-2009 10:46 AM

[url]http://books.google.com.au/books?id=nYbnr5XVbzUC&pg=PA467&lpg=PA467&dq=Leo+of+Tripoli&source=bl&ots=EzJr63H754&sig=-HJkQ-MNrozrjwl35D2_vApPzB4&hl=en&ei=Mc5MSpPyCov8tQPAtK2rBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9[/url]

[URL=http://img17.imageshack.us/i/92694903.png/][IMG]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7755/92694903.png[/IMG][/URL]

Treadgold comes to a slightly different conclusion, minimizing the effect that the Slavs had during the siege. Cametinae, a contemporary and witness to the events, clearly has a different account.

Risto the Great 07-02-2009 04:29 PM

SoM, your attention to detail is yet to disappoint!

Pelister 07-02-2009 11:03 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19171][B][I][COLOR="Blue"]I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians............[/COLOR][/I][/B]

The above was written by John Cametinae. Check the below:

[url]http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/thessaloniki.htm[/url]


From the above link, here is an interesting excerpt from the text:



There they are again, the Christians used 'their' neighbouring Slavs as archers - The Slavs, Macedonians, defenders of Salonika against the Muslim attack and Leo the turncoat (who converted to Islam at some stage). Note that there were no neighbouring 'Greeks' to send for.[/QUOTE]

Could "Slav" be a reference to non-Christians or pagans?

Risto the Great 07-03-2009 12:52 AM

Surely it is not a silly idea to consider the theory that Slav in a medieval context is simply Thracian in a historical context?

Soldier of Macedon 07-03-2009 05:09 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;19183]Could "Slav" be a reference to non-Christians or pagans?[/QUOTE]
The term 'Slav' could have meant multiple things during the same period in history, such as a Pagan at the beginning of the invasions in many cases. However, we must also allow for later references to persons like 'Thomas the Slav' and 'Andrew Craterus', who would most definetly be Christians. Personally, I consider 'Slav' more a developing identity as a result of linguistic awakening, for, while the Thraco-Illyrians may well have had only a vague idea of their affinity with the Danubian Slavs, after the 6th century this commonality was more pronounced and acknowledged.
[QUOTE="Risto the Great"]Surely it is not a silly idea to consider the theory that Slav in a medieval context is simply Thracian in a historical context?[/QUOTE]
This is most plausable, generic terms were broadly applied, Thracians, Getae, Scythians, Slavs, etc. The fact is, in ancient times there was a population that was considered the largest in Europe and lived in the same territory as the largest linguistic group in Europe today. There can be no dispute as to who are the descendants of the Thracians.

Soldier of Macedon 07-04-2009 04:39 AM

[URL=http://img6.imageshack.us/i/268mto.jpg/][IMG]http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9900/268mto.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
George Ostrogorski, History of the Byzantine State.
[URL=http://img248.imageshack.us/i/269mto.jpg/][IMG]http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1340/269mto.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
George Ostrogorski, History of the Byzantine State.

Here is a 'Bulgar-centric' view of Bogomilsm on Wiki, some information is of value to confirm events.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism[/url]


Bogomilsm took a hold of the Macedonian population in the decades just prior to the rebellion of Samuel and establishment of his empire.

Soldier of Macedon 07-04-2009 05:12 AM

Who was Basil of Ohrid, that became Archbishop of Salonika and was a staunch supporter of the division between the Eastern and Western Churches? I haven't found anything yet that elaborates much, only brief citations such as in the links below:

[url]http://books.google.com.au/books?id=PXizk1RZ88wC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=basil+of+ochrid,+archbishop+of+thessalonica&source=bl&ots=OPI_JgxGQ0&sig=JEKCcCFwRQPQpqozzkYn9rfmAOI&hl=en&ei=aSdPStDKE4HosQO2ttSqDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8[/url]
[url]http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc01.html?term=Basil%20of%20Achrida[/url]

Bratot 07-04-2009 09:49 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;19187]Surely it is not a silly idea to consider the theory that Slav in a medieval context is simply Thracian in a historical context?[/QUOTE]

Herodotus in his History wrote:

"The most populated area after India, is Thrace. If they were under one rule and of one mind, they would have been the mightiest people on earth. [U]But the unity of these peoples have never been achieved[/U], that's the weakest point of the Thracians. [B]They take different names by the area they live around,[/B] [U]but they all have common customs and traditions". [/U]


[url]http://ziezi.net/trakite.html[/url]

Thracian Glossary.
[url]http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/thra.html[/url]

Sources:
1. Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan Languages. Moscow, 1978.
2. Fasmer, M. Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.
3. Georgiev, V. Ezyk na trakite.
4. Duridanov, I. Ezikyt na trakite, Sofia, 1976.

TrueMacedonian 07-07-2009 10:38 PM

Perboundos
 
[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=9cZ_4yCuQj8C&pg=PA270&lpg=PA270&dq=perboundos&source=bl&ots=TMoSvVzhqO&sig=tVRQxRKrNpQckRiJjkqA0lIPBIQ&hl=en&ei=RQ5USpmYFeSxtweh_fmoCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7[/url]

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[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/kaldellis-1.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/kaldellis113.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/kaldellis113a.png[/IMG]

TrueMacedonian 07-07-2009 10:47 PM

Perbundus
 
[B]External Threats[/B]

Hearing of his father's assassination, Constantine IV immediately set sail for Sicily and arrived shortly after the rebellion of Mizizius had been put down. During the winter, he was able to reassert imperial authority over the troops and in the spring he brought them back to Constantinople. The first major threat that Constantine faced was the advance of the Arabs. Building upon gains made during Constans II's reign, Mucawiya attacked Sicily, North Africa, and Anatolia. Soon, it was clear to the emperor that Mucawiya was focused on bringing his forces to bear against the capital city of Constantinople itself. In 670 Arab naval forces occupied Cyzicus and established a base for future attacks against the city, and in 672 captured Smyrna. In 674 the Arab fleet began its assault upon Constantinople. With the emperor's attention focused on the Arabs, [I]the Slav chieftain Perbundus made plans to capture Thessalonica. When Constantine learned of Perbundus' plans, he had him executed. The Slavs, angered by the execution, still attacked the city and laid siege to it.[/I]

[url]http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:QL0jOCQz8y0J:www.roman-emperors.org/Constiv.htm+perbundus&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 07-08-2009 04:17 AM

Good work TM, another set of interesting sources. This quote in particlar stands out:

"[B][I]The Byzantines were Romans who happened to speak Greek, and [U]not Greeks who happened to call themselves Romans[/U][/I][/B]"


How true, how true, a living contradiction, just like the title of the book "Hellenism in Byzantium", lol.

TrueMacedonian 07-08-2009 03:51 PM

Thanks SoM. I posted some of Kalledis' pages in this thread here - [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=542&page=4[/url]

And here's something I just found;

[url]http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA41&dq=romanized+slavs&lr=&id=1S5zGxF8VMoC&as_brr=3[/url]

It would appear that Maurice had intended to break down the barrier, which had been interposed in the fourth century, between the class which paid the taxes and that which recruited the national army. ' We wish,' he writes; ' that every young Roman of free condition should learn the use of the bow, and should be constantly provided with that weapon and with two javelins.' If, however, this was intended to be the first step towards the introduction of universal military service, the design was never carried any further. Three hundred years later Leo is found echoing the same words, as a pious wish rather than as a practical expedient. The rank and file, however, of the imperial forces were now raised almost entirely within the realm, and well nigh every nation contained in its limits, except the Greeks, furnished a considerable number of soldiers. The Armenians and Isaurians in Asia, [B]the ' Thracians' and ' Macedonians'—or more properly the semi-Romanized Slavs—in Europe, were considered the best material by the recruiting officer.[/B]

The Art of War in the Middle Ages, A. D. 378-1515 By Charles William Chadwick Oman page 41

Bratot 07-08-2009 08:23 PM

Art of War in the Middle Ages A. D. 378-1515

[url]http://www.unlt.com/art-of-war-in-the-middle-ages-a-d-378-1515_0801490626.html[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 07-10-2009 09:26 PM

[url]http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=102924949[/url]

[QUOTE]Sometime about 470, [B]three young peasants from upper Macedonia abandoned their struggle with poverty at home and left for Constantinople[/B], travelling on foot, with only some toasted bread wrapped up in their cloaks for food. [B]We know their names, and two are recognizably Thracian; Zimarchus, Dityvistus. The third, Justin, was probably of Thracian origin as well. Justin, and perhaps his companions too, were from [U]Bederiana, the name of which has survived in a village called Bader near modern Skopje in Macedonia[/U].[/B] When these three reached the capital, they found that the emperor Leo was organizing the Excubitores as a new corps of palace guards intended to counterbalance the influence of the German federate troops, and since they were strong, healthy young men, they were promptly enrolled. Zimarchus and Dityvistus thereupon disappeared from history, but their companion was to become the emperor Justin I.[/QUOTE]
I thought it worthy to note as Serbs tend to try and claim Justin and Justinian for themselves, even though Bederiana (Bader) and Tauresium (Taor) are both in Macedonian territory, not Serbian.

osiris 07-10-2009 11:14 PM

[QUOTE]"The Byzantines were Romans who happened to speak Greek, and not Greeks who happened to call themselves Romans"[/QUOTE]

while greek was the official language i very much doubt that many people in the empire actually spoke greek, it was a multi cultural multi lingual empire and the majority of its population would have spoken their native language only. greek would have been limited to a very small section of the population.

if greek was the language of the empire we would most likely have a similar situation that exists in the west with latin forming the basis of all the languages spoken. even constantinople was a totally multilingual city, with over 40 languages spoken by its citizens.

i would suggest that in the smaller cities the lingua franca would not have been greek, witness the remarks of the emperor who chose cyril and methodius as missionaries, didnt he say they are Thessalonians and all thessalonians speak slav. to me that suggests that slavic was the peoples language of the empires 2nd largest city and most likely throughout the whole balkan peninsula including parts of greece during the 9th to 12 centuries.

the problem is that historians are to constantinople centric and that has colored their view of cultural and linguistic makeup of the empire

Soldier of Macedon 07-11-2009 12:53 AM

Despite the lingua franca, the native languages were preserved, that in itself says alot.

Pelister 07-15-2009 08:56 PM

I thought this was interesting.

There has been a battle going on in Christianity for a long time. This appears to be one of those.

[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=xtgDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA471&dq=arians+macedonians&lr=&hl=el[/url]

Enjoy.

Sovius 07-23-2009 11:05 PM

Could the following be regarded as an accurate general summation of the re-emerging objectivist interpretation of the period in question?

As the Gothic Insurrection, which Procopius had recorded earlier, swept through the Eastern Roman Empire, dividing populations into authoritarian loyalists (Romans) and egalitarian separatists (Sklavenes), colonial rule among the Romans had come to be eclipsed by indigenous leaders, who often shared the same ethnic backgrounds as those who continued to oppose the ruling class and those who this ruling class governed. Political divisions, once fairly absolute, blended together in certain areas, with economic and political interests blurring sides in military conflicts, producing the Antic division among the indigenous military democracies, for example. Religious division continued to further fragment the region’s populations, as well, with belief systems such as Arianism, which was adopted by Getic populations earlier on, prying away at political uniformity.

[CENTER]________________________

St. Columban

“the land of the Veneti, who are also called Sclavi.”

“the land of the Venetians, who we also now refer to as Sklavi, because they fought alongside the Thracians.”

“The land of the Americans, who are also informally called Yankees, because they rejected British subjugation in favor of independence.”

The Yankee Language Group?

The Ethnogenesis of the Yankees?

The New York Slavs?

_______________________[/CENTER]
What I thought was really interesting when I was reading these passages was that, what had come to be viewed as a gradual collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire due to (uncivilized) external forces during the 19th Century by Western European nationalist scholars was actually viewed as more of an internal implosion by those who actually experienced these events; a classic case of class struggle that arose out of a previous period of more isolated waves of rebellion and non-Roman (Venetic,etc.) military interventions in many ways.

An excellent collection of research material, many thanks to many people.

Soldier of Macedon 07-24-2009 12:31 AM

[QUOTE="Sovius"]As the Gothic Insurrection, which Procopius had recorded earlier, swept through the Eastern Roman Empire, dividing populations into authoritarian loyalists (Romans) and egalitarian separatists (Sklavenes), colonial rule among the Romans had come to be eclipsed by indigenous leaders, who often shared the same ethnic backgrounds as those who continued to oppose the ruling class and those who this ruling class governed.[/QUOTE]
And often shared the same origins as the 'Slavs' from the Danube, what you suggest is very probable indeed.

Sovius 07-25-2009 10:34 PM

The Danube River represented an equator of sorts for populations archeologically defined as the Neolithic Balkan Painted and Impressed Pottery cultures, which also extended well into Northwestern Anatolia. The Getae regained Dacia from the Romans, the northernmost region of this Neolithic zone of cultural uniformity, in 292 AD. The Dacians were regarded as a kindred people to the Thracians, who existed largely on the other side of the Danube and spoke a language similar to the Dacian language.

Looking through the eyes of the Romans, we have a political border defined by a water system, but through Gothic eyes, this river represented a partition of their motherland, if we are to incorporate genetic evidence demonstrating population continuity in the region since before the Neolithic Period.

It’s within the general region of Dacia, where archeologists have found evidence of admixture between both Linear Pottery cultures and Trypolye-Cucuteni cultures to the Northwest and Northeast respectively. Beyond the Carpathians, a period of admixture occurred between populations representing Linear Pottery and Trypolye-Cucuteni material traits during the Neolithic Period, as well.

It’s interesting to note that the region of Dacia was an early cultural center during what has been generically classified as Europe’s Urnfield Period. It may well come to be that what was left unwritten during the Ancient Period may be of more value to contemporary historical researchers in terms of gaining a more complete understanding of the cultural and political dynamics during this era than the written record. There was a motivation displayed in the military conflicts recorded during this period that remains defined by this region’s archeological record. Before the Romans conquered the Dacians, who conquered the Romans?

osiris 07-25-2009 10:37 PM

sovius please post more i am learning much from your posts.

Soldier of Macedon 07-26-2009 08:27 AM

[QUOTE="Sovius"]Looking through the eyes of the Romans, we have a political border defined by a water system, but through Gothic eyes, this river represented a partition of their motherland, if we are to incorporate genetic evidence demonstrating population continuity in the region since before the Neolithic Period.[/QUOTE]
Well said, I would also include available historical data of the people in the region.

TrueMacedonian 09-11-2009 02:58 PM

[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/varangian.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/varangian52.png[/IMG]

Soldier of Macedon 09-11-2009 09:00 PM

Another good source TM, keep em' coming, this thread has some excellent reference material.

TrueMacedonian 09-12-2009 12:41 AM

I have a bunch of goodies coming this threads way SoM. Like these for instance;

[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/nicetas.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/nicetas75.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/georgina.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/georgina27.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/shea86.png[/IMG]
[B]Macedonia and Greece[/B] by John Shea

TrueMacedonian 09-12-2009 12:45 AM

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:rmacedonia

TrueMacedonian 09-12-2009 12:55 AM

Doing my research on Eustratios I noticed that some imposter hellenes make the arguement that his name is "greek". That arguement stinks like :shit: considering that the Armenian he fought would supposedly have a "greek" name. Funny how the armenian also spoke "hellenic" or more appropriately, according to scholar Anthony Kalldellis, he spoke "Roman". Also the soldiers rooting for Eustratios were called [B]Roman[/B] and not "greek". Considering also what Nicetas Choniates own brother has to say about Athens during this period - [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1855[/url] -
I highly doubt that any ancient Hellenes survived passed the 3rd or 4th centuries A.D.
Sorry imposter hellenes. Better luck usurping entire empires next time.

Soldier of Macedon 09-12-2009 01:18 AM

Again, excellent sources, and well done on revealing some more information about the Macedonian Niketas who spoke the Slavonic tongue and became the Patriarch, there isn't much around about him.

TrueMacedonian 09-17-2009 10:37 AM

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Pelister 09-20-2009 07:38 PM

All of this stuff is really valuable especially in developing a Macedonian theme.


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