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-   -   Albanianization in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837)

European 06-16-2011 07:07 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;101851]It doesn't look like you'll be here long European - make the most of it.[/QUOTE]

Should monuments of Albanians not be allowed?

Are Albanians not citizens?

What part of my post is deemed banworthy? From the information Niko posted, Pjeter Bogdani and Josif Bageri have links to Macedonia as well.

makedonche 06-16-2011 07:13 PM

[QUOTE=European;101852]Should monuments of Albanians not be allowed?

Are Albanians not citizens?

What part of my post is deemed banworthy? From the information Niko posted, Pjeter Bogdani and Josif Bageri have links to Macedonia as well.[/QUOTE]

European
Are they Albanian citizens or Macedonian citizens? What country do they live in? Albanian statues would look much better in Albania! :osama:

Vangelovski 06-16-2011 07:15 PM

European,

Why is it that you feel taxpayer's money should be used to foster two competing national identities, which can only lead to further segregation rather than integration of the Albanian community into wider society?

As for your short time here, it won't be long before I ask a few questions and you fail to meet our high standards in relation to natural rights.

European 06-16-2011 07:20 PM

[QUOTE=makedonche;101854]European
Are they Albanian citizens or Macedonian citizens? What country do they live in? Albanian statues would look much better in Albania! :osama:[/QUOTE]

They are Albanian in ethnicity and Macedonian citizen. Whether they would look better in Albania or Macedonia is a moot point.

Why shouldn't Albanians have monuments built? If taxdollars are being used to build these statues, do you believe taxdollars should only be allocated toward Macedonian monuments alone? If so, why?

European 06-16-2011 07:26 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;101856]European,

Why is it that you feel taxpayer's money should be used to foster two competing national identities, which can only lead to further segregation rather than integration of the Albanian community into wider society?

As for your short time here, it won't be long before I ask a few questions and you fail to meet our high standards in relation to natural rights.[/QUOTE]

How are the statues competing? This is not a zero sum game where a Albanian statue is built, the Macedonian sides loses or vice versa.

Why should Albanians not be represented when taxpayer monies is being used?

Vangelovski 06-16-2011 07:34 PM

[quote=European;101858]How are the statues competing? This is not a zero sum game where a Albanian statue is built, the Macedonian sides loses or vice versa.

Why should Albanians not be represented when taxpayer monies is being used?[/quote]They statues compete because Albanian national ideology claims that certain parts of Macedonian territory belongs to the Albanians. So in fact, it is a zero sum game, as that specific territory can only belong to one state. Try and think it through to its logical conclusion.

The Framework Agreement has given Albanians special privelages. For example, Albanians now have a veto on more than 40 laws at the national level even though they only make up 25% of the population. This effectivly means that an Albanian vote is worth more than a Macedonian vote. Do you agree that Albanians deserve such privelages? And if so, why?

European 06-16-2011 07:52 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;101859]They statues compete because Albanian national ideology claims that certain parts of Macedonian territory belongs to the Albanians. So in fact, it is a zero sum game, as that specific territory can only belong to one state. Try and think it through to its logical conclusion.
[/QUOTE]

I am thinking logically but you are making a faulty assumption that statues lay claims on territories. Going by your logic the Holocaust Memorial in Macedonia is a territorial claim by Isreal. I believe Ataturk's house is used as a museumin Macedonia, would that be considered a legacy of the Ottaman past and a claim by today's Turks to Macedonia?

It appears these Albanian monuments are historical figure with links to Macedonia. Refusing Albanians from participation in the culture sphere will further segregate the people. In addition, allocating taxmonies to only Macedonian project will further segregate the Albanian citizens.

[QUOTE]The Framework Agreement has given Albanians special privelages. For example, Albanians now have a veto on more than 40 laws at the national level even though they only make up 25% of the population. This effectivly means that an Albanian vote is worth more than a Macedonian vote. Do you agree that Albanians deserve such privelages? And if so, why?[/QUOTE]

I am not an expert in this field, but a right of a veto does not necessarily mean an Albanian vote is more than a Macedonian vote. To take a simple example, in the US only 1/4 of the votes of the states is needed to veto an amendment.

Vangelovski 06-16-2011 08:02 PM

[quote=European;101861]I am thinking logically but you are making a faulty assumption that statues lay claims on territories. Going by your logic the Holocaust Memorial in Macedonia is a territorial claim by Isreal. I believe Ataturk's house is used as a museumin Macedonia, would that be considered a legacy of the Ottaman past and a claim by today's Turks to Macedonia?

It appears these Albanian monuments are historical figure with links to Macedonia. Refusing Albanians from participation in the culture sphere will further segregate the people. In addition, allocating taxmonies to only Macedonian project will further segregate the Albanian citizens.[/quote] I don't think you are thinking hard enough. Statues of this kind have only one purpose, and that is to develop a national identity. Albanian nationalism claims certain Macedonian territory as its own and therefore is incompatible with the Macedonian state. It has nothing to do with culture.

[quote=European;101861]I am not an expert in this field, but a right of a veto does not necessarily mean an Albanian vote is more than a Macedonian vote.[/quote]It means exactly that. The example you provided for the US is not comparable to the situation in Macedonia. The Framework Agreement provides for veto powers purely on the basis of ethnicity. Do you think this is appropriate?

makedonche 06-16-2011 08:17 PM

[QUOTE=European;101857]They are Albanian in ethnicity and Macedonian citizen. Whether they would look better in Albania or Macedonia is a moot point.

Why shouldn't Albanians have monuments built? If taxdollars are being used to build these statues, do you believe taxdollars should only be allocated toward Macedonian monuments alone? If so, why?[/QUOTE]

European
The question was are they Albanian citizens or Macedonian citizens?
There was no question of ethnicity! The second question was where do they live? Macedonia or Albania? - that should enlighten you on the "moot point". Since they are so proud to be Albanian why don't they go and create more employment in Albania and put the statues there - where they would be more appropriate.

julie 06-16-2011 09:12 PM

[QUOTE=makedonche;101867]European
The question was are they Albanian citizens or Macedonian citizens?
There was no question of ethnicity! The second question was where do they live? Macedonia or Albania? - that should enlighten you on the "moot point". Since they are so proud to be Albanian why don't they go and create more employment in Albania and put the statues there - where they would be more appropriate.[/QUOTE]

MacedoniA for the macedoniAns


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