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-   -   Albanianization in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837)

Droog 07-18-2011 09:32 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;105564]What sort of garbage ambiguity was that? Indeed, the victimisation is getting really old and boring, especially when the so-called 'victims' can't even justify their actions. Let me put it to you in another way - [B]do you agree with what the NLA did in terms of raising arms against the state?[/B] It's a simple question, answer it.

How were they oppressed?

Droog - this will be the final time I will ask you to corroborate your allegation regarding Macedonian leaders like Temelko declaring 4 different ethnicities. I would advise you to follow up conclusively and not bother coming back here until you do.[/QUOTE]
Didn't I already sent you the results of the elections? (and don't take situations I've been explaining to you out of context as I've been refering to the whole population including leaders and not just leaders)

Nobody is entitled to anything and everything you have is the result of certain actions. If someone's feeling oppressed it's completely unimportant if you consider their reasons "right" or "wrong" (although when you use the same reasons they're right).

Don't ask simplistic questions, because they're pointless. What you should be saying and admitting is that you're against the NLA actions because you consider that their interests are opposed to yours and the same applies to everybody else. Trying to justify support/opposition with moralistic terms indicates at the very least naivety

Now let me rephrase your question: Would you at that given time support NLA? Were I an Albanian living in Macedonia under those conditions I would definitely support NLA, because they were indeed promoting Albanian interests. Were I a Macedonian living in Macedonia under those conditions I would definitely oppose NLA as their interests would be against my interests. Were I an Aromanian living in Macedonia under those conditions depending on my interests I would probably remain neutral, but if something happened and NLA took over the country I'd support NLA because ...vae victis.

Soldier of Macedon 07-18-2011 09:52 AM

[QUOTE=Droog;105652]Didn't I already sent you the results of the elections? (and don't take situations I've been explaining to you out of context as I've been refering to the whole population including leaders and not just leaders)[/QUOTE]
I have taken nothing out of context, and I am more than happy to make public your private message to me where you suggested such an absurdity. So [B]show us all where Edmund Temelko has declared by 4 different ethnicities[/B], like you previously stated.
[QUOTE]Were I an Albanian living in Macedonia [U]under those conditions[/U] I would definitely support NLA........[/QUOTE]
What conditions are you talking about? I want to know what it takes to push someone to the edge so they can pick up a gun and start murdering people.

vicsinad 07-18-2011 10:13 AM

Soldier:

Stop asking simple questions, because simple questions mean that droog has to give specific answers. And we all know Droog only likes to write in generalities.

Soldier of Macedon 07-18-2011 10:24 AM

If Droog doesn't produce some direct answers and end this little charade soon, I will do it for him.

United MKD 07-18-2011 10:26 AM

[QUOTE=Droog;105652]
Now let me rephrase your question: Would you at that given time support NLA? Were I an Albanian living in Macedonia under those conditions I would definitely support NLA, because they were indeed promoting Albanian interests.[/QUOTE]

Under [U]those[/U] conditions in Macedonia? You have got to be kidding me.

vicsinad 07-18-2011 10:53 AM

If I were an Albanian living in Macedonia under those conditions, I'd take my KLA/NLA thugs to Albania and go fight as freedom fighters in Albania so fellow Albanians in Albania could have the same rights that Albanians in Macedonia have.

That is, if I cared about rights more than I cared about my heroin/prostitution/guns enterprise and Greater Albania.

Sometimes, Albanians should ask themselves: who is benefiting from this "Greater Albania" dream? The people are still poor, criminals are still rampant, and they've lost more freedoms in Kosovo than they've gained from independence.

Droog 07-18-2011 12:35 PM

Let's see what scholars, who have general knowledge and authority on these issues have to say about "those" conditions(I'll present them in a timeline with one event each time as I want a clear reply to each action):

[B]1981:[/B][URL="http://books.google.com/books?id=PG2Mlbuj_soC&pg=PA287&dq=%22having+turned+strictly+Albanian+schools+into+ethnically+mixed+schools,+the+authorities+used+this+fait+accompli+to+justfiy+replacing+Albanian+as+the+language+of+instruction+with+Macedonian%22%22&hl=en&ei=zW8kTuHmH8uq8QOo7KWpAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false"]After the aforementioned unrest in Kosovo in 1981, Macedonian communists started to bring Macedonian schoolchildren to Albanian schools, thereby establishing ethnically mixed classes; having turned strictly Albanian schools into ethnically mixed schools, the authorities used this fait accompli to justify replacing Albanian as the language of instruction with Macedonian.[/URL]

Using state measures to stop children from being taught their mother tongue is generally considered opressive, don't you think? Actually doing something like that is a violation of human rights.

Do you consider that opressive? Answer with a yes/no.

El Bre 07-18-2011 12:48 PM

[QUOTE=Droog;105664]Let's see what scholars, who have general knowledge and authority on these issue have to say about "those" conditions(I'll present them in a timeline with one event each time as I want a clear reply to each action):

[B]1981:[/B][URL="http://books.google.com/books?id=PG2Mlbuj_soC&pg=PA287&dq=%22having+turned+strictly+Albanian+schools+into+ethnically+mixed+schools,+the+authorities+used+this+fait+accompli+to+justfiy+replacing+Albanian+as+the+language+of+instruction+with+Macedonian%22%22&hl=en&ei=zW8kTuHmH8uq8QOo7KWpAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false"]After the aforementioned unrest in Kosovo in 1981, Macedonian communists started to bring Macedonian schoolchildren to Albanian schools, thereby establishing ethnically mixed classes; having turned strictly Albanian schools into ethnically mixed schools, the authorities used this fait accompli to justify replacing Albanian as the language of instruction with Macedonian.[/URL]

Using state measures to stop children from being taught their mother tongue is generally considered opressive, don't you think? Actually doing something like that is a violation of human rights.

Do you consider that opressive? Answer with a yes/no.[/QUOTE]

No. It's not opression, it's integration. An attempt to try and head off the kind of silliness which ended up taking place in 2001. Without some form of cohesiveness a country cannot exist. Even in Canada, where this kind of 2 solitude nonsense seems to work within Quebec. It really doesn't. Most Canadians resent Quebec and it's special treatment.

Droog 07-18-2011 12:55 PM

[QUOTE=El Bre;105665]No. It's not opression, it's integration. An attempt to try and head off the kind of silliness which ended up taking place in 2001. Without some form of cohesiveness a country cannot exist. Even in Canada, where this kind of 2 solitude nonsense seems to work within Quebec. It really doesn't. Most Canadians resent Quebec and it's special treatment.[/QUOTE]

So if you were part of a minority in a country and the government passed a law that moved pupils from one school to another with the purpose of not allowing your community's pupils from being taught in their own mother tongue, you wouldn't consider that opressive? Should I remind you that most people who post in this forum complain
about Macedonian minorities that aren't allowed to be taught in their mother tongue?

That's called hypocrisy and it leads to resentment towards the majority by the minority. For the record it's the opposite of integration: the whole point of integration is the promotion of peaceful co-existence and not the promotion of actions that arouse resentment, because that's what happens when the majority tries to do something like that against the minority.

vicsinad 07-18-2011 01:55 PM

Albanian schools in Macedonia? Were these 'Albanian' schools public or private? If they are public, then they are Macedonian schools, and the pupils of that school should be learning the language of the country (Macedonian) as their primary language...along with Albanian if that is the wish of the local population.

If they were private schools with no state funding, then I would agree -- that was not right for Macedonian authorities to do such.

However, that does not amount to oppression that allows for KLA and NLA thugs to murder people so they have the right NOT to speak Macedonian in Macedonia.

Question is: what's a graver oppression -- having ethnic Albanians learn Macedonians so they at least know how to speak in Macedonia when talking to a fellow Macedonian countryman; or ethnic Albanians murdering Macedonians, ethnically cleansing Macedonian villages, and burning and destroying scores of Macedonian churches?


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