[QUOTE=OziMak;82724][B]Your kidding right.[/B] If you take the attitude the law applies to you to prevent you doing something but does not apply to them then you self define the rules of engagement against you…which is a weakness…which they will see as a weakness and as such a green light to pick on you…it’s a self fulfilling situation whose inevitable conclusion is complete capitulation ie you’re my bitch or armed conflict.

You say it is [I]not the right time[/I] ie its better to avoid action which you see will lead to armed conflict so if you are avoiding armed conflict then are you embracing being someone’s bitch. Its one or the other so which is it.

Or if you are smart enough you take the third option with the armed conflict option in reserve. Seeing your such an intellectual Ill let you tell us the third option…here’s a clue I’ve already said it somewhere else.

The fact the answer is written somewhere else should suit intellectuals like you with you nose stuck in a book…if you read enough I’m sure you will find it. As a kid did you never get picked on by anyone and did you not form different responses depending on the circumstances of a given situation.

For f sake have you never hear the sayings
Imas um I razum…misli I praj
And
Snajdise.

[B]No lets just keep waiting and let the problem grow until it really is too big then you can claim to be vindicated it was better to do nothing because the problem was just too big.[/B][/QUOTE]

agreed on all points, in the end when RoM will be the shiptars bitches they will blame the diaspora for it

[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;82733]8 years.
Didn't have a choice. My father decided he wanted to go back after he got layed off from US Steel and I was too young to do anything about it.

Youth and wisdom are two things that non of us can possess at the same time.:wheelchair:

[/QUOTE]
Sorry, to hear that about your father and not sure what has held you back from returning after all these years (future) - you work for the government? Macedonian band? You know Tome?

[QUOTE=Bratot;82208][B]"I have the solution for you fat-ass! Buy my diet program and spare us from your gigantic square butt!"[/B][/QUOTE]
Guess what!
"Fat" is considered nicer than "obese".

[url]http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/fat-versus-obese-20101213-18v4y.html[/url]
[QUOTE]
Fat or obese? While the latter is viewed as more politically correct, an Australian study has confirmed the former is the "lesser of two evils".

A University of NSW study which looked at public perceptions surrounding these words has found that, while neither would flatter a person, obese was viewed more negatively.

"I wouldn't say that there was any acceptance of `fat', but that `obesity' was seen as less favourable and more disgusting," said the study's author, Lenny Vartanian, a lecturer at UNSW's School of Psychology.

"People saw themselves as being more like a fat person than an obese person, there was more a sense of familiarity with fat people than obese people."

Dr Vartanian's study took in the views of almost 430 undergraduate students, of a variety of body sizes, at the university.

He said the results echoed earlier studies conducted specifically among overweight people, and which asked for their views on the use of the words "fat" versus "obese".

"They don't like being called fat, but it does seem to be the lesser of two evils," Dr Vartanian said.

"They would prefer to be called fat than to be called obese.

"(So) the term `fat' in these studies does seem to be less problematic than the term `obese'."

Dr Vartanian said these findings challenged the wisdom of recent calls, from some quarters, to adopt a "tough love" approach to the problem of Western society's expanding waistline.

In July, both the UK health minister and the Victorian president of the Australian Medical Association said calling some obese people fat might be the nudge they needed to start losing weight.

Dr Vartanian said this was flawed on two levels, as [B]not only was "shaming" known to not motivate people to make positive changes to their lifestyle, calling overweight people fat would make many feel "less bad about themselves".[/B]

He said he supported the status quo - that "obese" should continue to be used to refer tothose who meet its technical definition of having a body mass index (BMI) of 30 and above.

"If you have a BMI over a certain point then you are categorised as obese from a medical perspective, because you are at increased risk of type two diabetes and heart disease," Dr Vartanian said.

"Calling someone a fat person is like calling somebody crazy - it just doesn't have an official definition that is useful.

"It doesn't have a place in (public health) forums, and while obese might be seen more negatively and as less desirable to obese individuals themselves, at least it has an official definition."

Dr Vartanian's study also points to another troubling aspect of the community's growing rate, and so normalisation, of obesity.

"As the population gets heavier it would certainly skew people's perceptions," he said.

"There are many people who we see walking down the street with a BMI over 30 and we might not necessarily recognise them as obese."

The research is published in the Italian-based journal Eating and Weight Disorder.[/QUOTE]

Bratot, the Doctor agrees with you. Calling them a name does not motivate people to make positive changes to their lifestyle. He prefers to use an index, perhaps we should create a PFS Index (Propensity For Servitude Index) to take the heat out of this debate.

But, whichever way we call it, there are still fat people around ... everywhere.

I can't help myself, I am an advocate of tough love and I see achievers all day who benefit from it.

[I]Is it your turn now to provoce and attack me or you are just way to ignorant in the present Macedonian affairs to know what you are talking about?[/I]

I have no interest in provoking you nor do I need a tag team to engage you. From the distance that I am it is inevitable that I cannot know as much as someone on the ground and how much this ignorance can affect my opinions and conclusions is for other to point out.

[I]You want Macedonia to enter a conflict that she wont win and Macedonian young men to die in vain just to satisfy your warmongering frustration healing process while at the same time deeply endangering the state we finally created while you live your life safely tucked away in a prosperous first world country?[/I]

Hardly. It is juvenile to jump to conflict at every minor provocation and it is not what I am saying but as you would know that every action needs to hold the final solution in reserve. If the other side believes there will Never be any consequence to their actions then you are encouraging them to push the actions one level higher each time until it is war or runaway. War is either scrambling to defend yourself or a considered action weighing up your options and never to be taken lightly.

[I]There are more then enough young Macedonian men who would willingly bare arms to wage a frontal war. There are more then enough of volunteers who will covertly provoce the shiptars to start the war by giving themselves as bait.[/I]

There are enough psychological books out here on how older minds can provoke younger minds into action and again it is not what I am saying.

[I]War is an expensive thing. Do you think that the Macedonian Diaspora will raise enough money and support for its compatriots like the shiptars did? Would Macedonian Diaspora young men sign up to come and fight in the homeland? Will the Diaspora become aggressive and start continuos violent riots in the countries they reside in in order to force support for Macedonia or will it continue to fart in the wind through the internet attacking each other?[/I]

Do you always see things so black and white. You quote me bellow and [B]is this all you got out of what I said…fight or flight or was the third option too complicated so lets just leave it out.[/B]

[I]Quote:
Your kidding right. If you take the attitude the law applies to you to prevent you doing something but does not apply to them then you self define the rules of engagement against you…which is a weakness…which they will see as a weakness and as such a green light to pick on you…it’s a self fulfilling situation whose inevitable conclusion is complete capitulation ie you’re my bitch or armed conflict.

Yes, your conclusion is exact and you have every right to be mad but you see... I AM FURIOUS at the no win position we are in and many other things your knowledge can not comprehend.[/I]

At least you recognise the first two options and how on evaluation neither is palatable nor fulfilling and the inevitable outcome of such a mix is frustration at…as you put it…[I]at the no win position[/I]. Is this really all you see. Having some action alleviates frustration. If you cant do this action can you not do that action.

[I]That is why I am here on this forum. To see if it will be at all possible to do something about it with the help of the Macedonian Diaspora.
In the process if I have to step on somebody's toes, infuriate somebody's frustration or endanger somebody's greedy interests to do it... So be it!!![/I]

And hence your feelings of needing to do Something and how important it is for you to do something even if…as you put it…[I]step on some toes.[/I] The diaspora have made some right noises and appear to be interested in helping and your Something…amongst other things…is to investigate any possibilities.

[I]Be patient! If it turns out that the Diaspora is only interested in quarreling amongst itself then I will go away by myself and never return.[/I]

And if it turns out to be a bunch of hot air you see no reason to waste your time with people puffing themselves up on the internet about how well they said this or that and…as you say…will go away by myself and never return. At least you would have found out if the diaspora are a positive resource or if the negative stereotypes being flung about are.

Sound about right so far.

Is there any options the government could be taking.
The impetus may or may not begin with the diaspora but just the fact of the matter is All the real action is on the ground…it always is in any situation.
I did say there is a third option.
Hopefully having discussed the futility of options 1 and 2 they can be put aside.
Ill leave it there.

[I]P.S.
The shiptars aren't as strong as we are weak at the moment. This present situation isn't permanent and can be altered to our favour but not in the way you constantly propose.[/I]

[QUOTE=Makedonska_Kafana;82745]what has held you back from returning after all these years (future) - you work for the government? Macedonian band? You know Tome?[/QUOTE]

Probably a lack of citizenship…many Macedonians from Australia went back to live in RoM without getting there citizenship and then could not come back to Australia when they wanted to…you cant account for Macedonia stupidity and stubborn pride…my parents were the same until we had an argument and I said we are either doing it or when I turn 18 I’m doing it on my own and stuff you.

It could work for me as well Risto in case we define some measure strategy to see how effective your "tough love" would be in practice.

Because so far I could identify only a greater gap over a nonsensical contest, without the minimum common sense and a good will to move on.

And I have witnessed the same just too many times so far without any real value except of a great opportunity being wasted.

Pozdrav,
M

[quote=Bratot;82754]It could work for me as well Risto in case we define some measure strategy to see how effective your "tough love" would be in practice.

Because so far I could identify only a greater gap over a nonsensical contest, without the minimum common sense and a good will to move on.

And I have witnessed the same just too many times so far without any real value except of a great opportunity being wasted.

Pozdrav,
M[/quote]

Bratot,

You didn't answer my question - now that you acknowledge the existence of a 'slave mentality', how would you describe it?

[QUOTE="Protivpropaganda"]We do have the millitary capability to defend our country but we do not have the economic strength and\or the international support to engage in such an adventure.[/QUOTE]
Can you explain to me the consequences of Macedonians re-asserting Macedonian authority in Macedonia? Will we get bombed? Boycotted? Invaded? What is it exactly that we are supposed to be 'scared' of?
[QUOTE]...a conclusion based discussion should be led.......[/QUOTE]
I agree completely. How closer are you to that goal since you joined? How close have you been to that goal before you joined?
[QUOTE]what the diaspora can do to help its own[/QUOTE]
For the Diaspora to help its own, its own must first be willing to help itself.
[QUOTE]Your question is out of order but I would like to think that it is made out of ignorance on the subject.[/QUOTE]
What? Why is my question out of order? I asked you a question, you'd be out of order not to answer it adequately. Against who's propaganda do you claim to be?

[quote=protivpropaganda;82708]We do have the millitary capability to defend our country but we do not have the economic strength and\or the international support to engage in such an adventure. What is most important is that the majority lacks the morale neccessary to engage in another conflict due to the negative experiences of 2001.
Any option to curtail the shiptar onslaught will lead to an armed conflict since they do have international support and this is not counting our neighbouring states. [/quote]

"Prof. D-re", it is becoming more and more apparent what your intentions are on this forum and the "intellectual" stream that you sputtered from.

Although I agree with a good deal of your analysis of the situation in Macedonia (it too has its issues), your conclusions and recommended course of action (or lack thereof) are disconnected from both the analysis you provide, the evidence at hand and historical experience.

Your view that 'waiting for better times' is a well known position and prominent within certain circles throughout history Macedonian and otherwise, namely, the supporters of the status quo. In most cases (that I can think of) these same circles eventually violently resisted the relevant liberation movement.

Bratot, we both clearly love Macedonia. But you and I are very apart on matters of basic ideology. As soon as I see something inconsistent with fulfilling the national agenda (which must embrace the Macedonian Cause) I drop it like a hot potato. You choose to ignore it for some "greater benefit" that is yet to be revealed.

Anyway, about that Albanianisation thing going on in Macedonia.
What should Macedonians do to fix the problem?