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Tomche Makedonche 04-26-2012 12:29 PM

"[I]In relation to the above, who do you believe is driving the "kind" of Macedonia you speak of?[/I]"

I personally assume that there are a number of external parties who would have an interest in influencing the direction of RoMs policy across a variety of fields so that it aligns with their own (neighbouring states and entities that have interests in the greater region are some examples), however responsibility falls to the government on whether, or how, it chooses to allow such influences to have any effect on their governance, hence in my opinion, this ultimately makes RoMs elected government the driver behind the "kind" of RoM it seeks to create.

Reading through this thread I think it's safe to say we are all in agreement that the manner in which the Albanian predicament has been handled by RoM would be described as poor at best. However I personally believe that the freedom in which Albanians are permitted to pursue their nationalistic agenda is not possible without the endorsement of parties of greater influence whose interests, coincidently also lie within the region.

"[I]In a nutshell, Macedonia has no future unless Macedonians decide on a future for themselves[/I]"

Completely with you on that one, however I'm not at all convinced that they have actually decided on the type of future they want, which after 20 years of independence, is more than a worry, such goals should have been established, agreed and adhered to prior to the thought of independence.


You can call me Tom, it's my name, plus I think the abbreviation TM has already been claimed by another forum member, though I could be mistaken.

"[I]Even so, that does not mean that Macedonia needs to welcome them or even allow foreign interference in its own domestic affairs, particularly if it is simply following internationally accepted practice by deconstructing so-called group rights and implementing a political system based on individual rights and responsibilities[/I]".

I agree, and in a just world that respects sovereignty and is committed to abiding by, and enforcing, such concepts like "international law" irrespective of the influence of the parties involved (I'm sure you're probably more versed in this than I), then should RoM's government choose to pursue this path, it should be free to do so unabated, provided it adheres to your aforementioned accepted practices and rights.
Though taking into account the current international political climate (not to mention the fact a precedence has been set by inviting external mediators to broker an agreement in relation to this issue), do you honestly believe that this scenario is likely to transpire?, I'm with you in respect of your thoughts on how it "should" transpire, and in the eyes of God, from a Macedonian perspective, we may be considered the more righteous in our pursuits?, but in the "material world" the adjudicator is not God, but man, and man was not designed to be just, man was designed to be able to choose, therein lies the predicament.
When I consider the current international political climate, I personal feel that the bodies which were designed to administer these concepts of "international law" have become ever more corrupted and can in no way be considered neutral, particularly when judgment is to be cast on the actions of a party with greater influence. In fact I would go so far as to say that these bodies are now becoming tools of the parties of greater influence. While on the one hand these bodies are encouraged to operate as intended when judgment is required on matters between parties which are of little to no interest to a party of greater influence, this "perception" of "fairness", on the other hand, is exploited when a party of greater influence uses these bodies to justify actions, which would otherwise be interpreted as illegal, against a lesser party who's interests conflict with that of their own. "Perception" then becomes the fundamental foundation on which the parties of greater influence retain their power/control over this supposed international equilibrium, it is what precludes chaos, which is a lot harder to control. I am not saying that this is by any means absolute truth, but simply my opinion on the current political climate which exists today. I am willing to admit this opinion could be misguided if proved otherwise.
However, as it has been the case for over 100 years, I believe Macedonia remains in the interests of parties with greater influence. I do not mean to say that what you propose is unobtainable nor that it shouldn't be pursued, quite the contrary, all I mean to say is that within this political climate, RoM's path to acheive this desired result, taking into account the agreements it has become a signatory to, is something that will take immense planning, cunning and a strong resolve, and I can't say that I currently see these required virtues within any political party in RoM.

"[I]I dont for a minute believe this would be a simple task and it does risk war. But not to attempt it would mean voluntarily surrendering Macedonia to a minority group led by racist extremists. War is undesirable to say the least, but many times it is unavoidable if we are to have a just peace in the long run[/I]"

Again I am in agreement with you, but when I think of a "hot war", the test I normally use to consider whether such action is justifiable is to simply ask myself whether I would be willing to enlist my own children for its cause, therefore I am personally hesitant to willingly commit any family to a Hot War unless the outcome/gains set out to be achieved through this action can in all likelihood be obtained and preserved, OR unless there is absolutely no other means to ensure the survival of my family. I personally don't think RoM's current situation meets either of the aforementioned criteria's yet, in other words all possible alternate methods have yet to be pursued and exhausted.

"[I]What type of actions do you think would be appropriate under these circumstances?[/I]"

This comes down to the "kind" of RoM that its government intends on creating, and to be honest I really don't know what that is. My interpretation at its beginning was that it was to be a nation state representative of the entire Macedonia and Macedonian Ethnos?, however following the signing of an international agreement this changed, and my understanding then was that it became a nation state specifically representative of the citizens of the state alone with no affiliation to the wider ethnos?, and then following the signing of another agreement this changed yet again and I think it became a multicultural state based on the concept of national affiliation with specific reference to Macedonian ethnic affiliation now being removed?, the constitution seemed a bit contradictory last time I went over it although I admit my interpretations could be wrong?, the situation is admittedly sort of confusing. What kind of RoM do you think should be created? this might be a better starting point cause I don't think these incompetant individuals supposedly in charge have any idea, although I hope to be proved wrong...

ProMKD and George:
I personal find value in this particualr quote as I think it has meaning in a variety of arenas, it is essentially about standing up for what you believe in. We are lucky enough to have an actual live recording of the quote itself, and I think the vigour in which Mario belts his words out makes it even more inspiring... [url=]Mario Savio Speech - Bodies Upon The Gears - YouTube[/url]

Niko777 04-26-2012 04:16 PM

albanians have money from drugs and crime as well as funding from the Saudis to keep building mosques, who is funding churches? no one...

Who is funding this giant Roman Catholic basilica in the center of Prishtina (Kosovo)?




Risto the Great 04-26-2012 05:03 PM

[QUOTE=Niko777;126215]Who is funding this giant Roman Catholic basilica in the center of Prishtina (Kosovo)?[/QUOTE]
That diminishes the "Muslim myth factor" somewhat.

Risto the Great 04-26-2012 05:11 PM

[QUOTE=Tomche Makedonche;126211]
ProMKD and George:
I personal find value in this particualr quote as I think it has meaning in a variety of arenas, it is essentially about standing up for what you believe in. We are lucky enough to have an actual live recording of the quote itself, and I think the vigour in which Mario belts his words out makes it even more inspiring... [url=]Mario Savio Speech - Bodies Upon The Gears - YouTube[/url][/QUOTE]
Wow, I like it!
What a shame he did not go on to shake up the USA any further. The continued FBI interest in his affairs is an example that would have warranted his continued activism.

Risto the Great 04-26-2012 05:13 PM

[QUOTE=ProMKD;126207]By the way, I think we need to open a thread specifically for all the Macedonian Orthodox Churches that have been robbed or vandalized. It would take some work from the admins/mods, but it would be worth being able to showcase the religious intolerance against our people. The topic should be closed for discussion, and should only provide links and quotes of articles where everybody can clearly see all the news for themselves. This topic is good for our members, but it`s far too enormous for outside viewers to actually get info from it easily.[/QUOTE]
That is a great idea ProMKD.
Please start it and we will give it the importance it deserves.

George S. 04-26-2012 05:29 PM

I allready mentioned to TM i found those quotes of putting the backs to the wheel i found that awe inspiring.
Also if we are going to talk about the churches it would be interesting to see whatever happened to the perpetrators,whether they got off scot free?The one that comes to mind the destruction of the beautifull leshok monastery.Supposedly it was under the unesco protection.I wonder what happened to the terrorists who blew it up,they got an amnesty!

EgejskaMakedonia 04-27-2012 01:34 AM

Another photo of the Glumovo mosque.


Look how run down and rural the surroundings look. Where the money is coming from to fund these mosques seriously needs to be identified by the government.

There are so many mosques in western Macedonia, it makes one wonder how they fill them up. Perhaps attendance isn't a concern, it's basically a territorial claim.

MKPrilep 04-27-2012 03:16 AM

Thats what I wanted to say.
Why such a large mosque for such a village?!
And where comes the money?
On the other hand, a town like Prilep builds now three small churches.
This is crazy.

This is Glumovo.



George S. 04-27-2012 04:56 AM

i have travelled right through albania & only managed to see one mosque only why??
Is it because they are catholics??

Niko777 04-27-2012 01:11 PM

Wanted to share this, from last January, Bitola region.

[url=]Меѓуетнички проблеми во битолско Велушина - YouTube[/url]

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