[QUOTE=Vangelovski;137861][URL="http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonian-president-disappointed-from-eu-conclusions"][url]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonian-president-disappointed-from-eu-conclusions[/url][/URL]

According to Ivanov, strictly abiding by the agreement that causes so many of these problems will somehow prevent them.[/QUOTE]

Vangelovski
I was wondering about that, didn't make a lot of sense to call for adherence to an agreement that caused most of the problems!

I have read all 297 pages of posts on this thread and all I can say is I'm horrified. I am horrified not only by the situation on the ground in Macedonia, but also by the indifference of the citizens of ROM. I have to also admit that I am equally disturbed by the infighting within the Diasporas themselves and between the various Diasporas and between the Diasporas and the citizens of ROM. I am saddened that for the sake of all our heritage and ancestors and family still living in ROM that we cannot tone down the arrogance and chest beating toward each other so as to come together and solve our many problems. What will it take for Macedonians not only to work together but to respect each other? Is it really that shocking that today we still fight to be recognized? Is it shocking that people can still claim that we don't exist as an ethnicity even in the face of so much factual history to back us up? No my friends its not shocking because if we take a step back and look at ourselves you will see that we don't act like a cohesive ethnicity we don't treat each other as if we are of the same blood. So can you really say that you are shocked at what going on?

This was a long winded way of coming to this point; the reason why albanization is taking over in ROM is because currently the Albanians are the only ones in ROM and internationally who act as a cohesive unit. They are all working together toward a common goal which unfortunately is to grab as much land as power as the can before they declare autonomy. Do you really wonder why they don't respect us or our country? We don't respect each other or our Country.

Keep this in mind, one day when Macedonia no longer exists what will you tell your children? How will you explain why we are a people with no country? What will you say when asked why did we let it happen? What did you do to help or to stop it? That we sat on a forum and attacked each other and insulted each other while our homeland burned to the ground?

I for one am first and foremost disgusted with myself that I let this happen. That I didn't speak loud enough that I didn't do my best to enlighten more people and help our countrymen.

Too much finger pointing and chest beating and not enough personal responsibility or action.

Before we as Macedonians can fix our country we must fix ourselves, we must learn to respect and help each other. If we cannot do that then we do not deserve our name, our independence, our history, our identity, or our country.
Most importantly we do not deserve our brave heroes who died not to liberate us, they knew full well that they could not do that, they died to give us a whimper of a chance at being able to one day realize their dreams.
I shed a tear every time I think about how selfless they were and then I am furious when I see how selfish we are today.

Gocka, if everyone could agree on the basics, then there would be room for diverging of interests. When you challenge some people's beliefs you might find you are horrified with what they are willing to accept. I think a seasoned patriot will really try to decipher messages coming from organisations to determine whether they are worthy of support. As an example, the UMD (a few years ago) was celebrating the social changes in Macedonia as a result of the Framework Agreement and how progressive Macedonia had become. We all know this is utter bullshit and they themselves wouldn't dare talk like that anymore.

Sometimes it is hard to forget. And when organisations or individuals do not stand up for themselves when queried, then they deserve to be treated with suspicion. Macedonians have had "suspicious" leaders for centuries.

And yes, Macedonians must definitely fix themselves. Particularly those in RoMacedonia presently.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;138378]Gocka, if everyone could agree on the basics, then there would be room for diverging of interests. When you challenge some people's beliefs you might find you are horrified with what they are willing to accept. I think a seasoned patriot will really try to decipher messages coming from organisations to determine whether they are worthy of support. As an example, the UMD (a few years ago) was celebrating the social changes in Macedonia as a result of the Framework Agreement and how progressive Macedonia had become. We all know this is utter bullshit and they themselves wouldn't dare talk like that anymore.

Sometimes it is hard to forget. And when organisations or individuals do not stand up for themselves when queried, then they deserve to be treated with suspicion. Macedonians have had "suspicious" leaders for centuries.[/QUOTE]

Funny you should mention the UMD I know many of the member personaly (I am not a part of the UMD org) I even know Meto personally from when we were kids to about young adults his sister as well. He was always very involved in politics and always seemed like a straight shooter who wanted to do good for Macedonia. The most intellegent maybe not but definitly not a bad guy. That doesn't mean people dont change but what I'm getting at is maybe as Macedonians we shouldn't jump to conclusions so easily about eachother rather maybe we should try and have honest discourse first and then judge. I do agree that they have had some questionable momments (the UMD) but i can not speak as to thier motivation or alligence.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;138379]And yes, Macedonians must definitely fix themselves. Particularly those in RoMacedonia presently.[/QUOTE]

I do not believe that they can just wake up one day and decide to "fix" themselves and believe me we as the diaspora need just as much fixing as they do. I will say that from what I notice on this forum is we do not have enough real leaders, many talkers but no leader. Macedonians in ROM need someone or group to guide them. Lets face it not everyone is a philosipher, not everyone is motivated, not everyone has the capacity to see things for what they are. Not everyone in Macedonia has to understand whats right and wrong, but they need to believe in and follow someone or something that does know what right and who has the courage to lead them. I find that the more intellegent ones from the diaspora such as yourselves just expect them to get it but they never will to the degree you might, or at least most of them wont. Just my opinion on the matter.

Gocka, there are some really lovely human beings running around this world who happen to be Macedonians. Many are woeful ideologically and should never be leaders. Meto is probably a nice guy.

There are some brilliant potential leaders in Macedonia who will never see the light of day on the main stage. Their agenda is quite simply too Pro-Macedonian.

Macedonians generally do not believe nor do they follow. I don't know why.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;138407]Gocka, there are some really lovely human beings running around this world who happen to be Macedonians. Many are woeful ideologically and should never be leaders. Meto is probably a nice guy.

There are some brilliant potential leaders in Macedonia who will never see the light of day on the main stage. Their agenda is quite simply too Pro-Macedonian.

Macedonians generally do not believe nor do they follow. I don't know why.[/QUOTE]

I agree Risto, most people should not and cannot lead. As for why Macedonians do not believe and do not follow I may know why. We are the biggest skeptics in the world, this is why we cannot believe. Even when we follow we do not really believe who ever we are following but we follow for other personal agendas. I have seen this even in myself more and more as I get older and interact more with other cultures. It is then that I notice that we are skeptical of everyone and everything and the reason for that is obvious. Have Macedonians ever had anyone they could trust? Someone has always screwed us sooner or later. The sad part is that it used to be outsiders that would screw us but today we screw each other more than anyone else does. As for not following that is partly because of being a skeptic and also partly because of being arrogant. We are a very arrogant people, a Macedonian will never pass up the chance to give you advice. A goat herder can give you medical advice and assure you it is sound and will even argue that the opinion you got from your doctor is crap and that your doctor is in fact the idiot. You can see it on this forum as well, the second ideas differ the insults come to the surface. Can anyone really lead with insults and by demoralizing? Leaders are motivators. Sadly the only known motivators we have in ROM are a few politicians and we know what good they are. I will give them as a good example though. What if SDSM were led by you or me? Our word spoken in their manner, then maybe the people protesting in the streets would be protesting for the right things. I suppose we are capable of following, just the wrong people. So there is solution number one. Find out why we as a nation follow either Gruevski or Crvenkoski and then emulate that with a different message.

Gocka all i can say from the above conversations of you & RTG is you guys have hit the proverbial nail in the head .Thats discussing what is really wrong with macedonia.In the diasporra we have supposed organizations who are supposed to represnt us & act in our interest.We have found the opposite is going on.All they want is fat salaries that means lots of members etc.Originally they started with the right meanings & got lost along the way.Macedonians themselves have become all too complacent,that is they don't care as long as they got the basic necessities of life food,job,shelter etc they are happy.But deep down they know they been screwed by the politicians all the time.

[QUOTE=Gocka;138414]You can see it on this forum as well, the second ideas differ the insults come to the surface. [/QUOTE]
I think you will find all Macedonians are given the benefit of doubt on this forum. Once they present their idea, it is entirely up to them to explain themselves and stand by their perspective.

I think more Macedonians should take an aggressive stance on ideological issues. If this was the case, Macedonia would not be in the position it is in right now. I have no desire to insult people but I have every desire to remind people how useless they may be to the Macedonian Cause.

I see no problem with this. I wish there was more of it! I am also the first one to offer support to Macedonians who dedicate themselves to the Cause and have more resources available to contribute than me. I wish there was more of this too.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;138426]I think you will find all Macedonians are given the benefit of doubt on this forum. Once they present their idea, it is entirely up to them to explain themselves and stand by their perspective.

I think more Macedonians should take an aggressive stance on ideological issues. If this was the case, Macedonia would not be in the position it is in right now. I have no desire to insult people but I have every desire to remind people how useless they may be to the Macedonian Cause.

I see no problem with this. I wish there was more of it! I am also the first one to offer support to Macedonians who dedicate themselves to the Cause and have more resources available to contribute than me. I wish there was more of this too.[/QUOTE]


I agree that for the most part people can express their views on this forum. What I do not agree with is the childish insults I have seen from certain people, not naming any names because that wouldn't help. I personally believe that insults only lower the discourse to a useless level regardless of how important the subject may have been. Even if insulted you should never insult back, it is in my opinion a sign of weakness and insecurity. I think we should take care as to not insult other Macedonians. I would even say our occasional foreign guests here should not be insulted. If you are polite and persistent they will become angry and expose themselves, there is no need for us to stoop so low. Image is everything especially today, its hard to accuse someone of anything who politely turns the other cheek and answers with logic and fact rather than anger. Now I know that easier said than done but I think it will as you would say help the cause.

That actually brings me to the albanization going on in ROM. I feel that part of what they are doing in ROM is correct, but they are doing it for the wrong reason. I am referring to the Macedonians seemingly keeping quiet and being very meek in the face of huge provocations. I believe this is the right first step to take with the Albanians. They are like children who seek attention and flatter there ego with childish provocation, my stick is bigger then yours type of things. Arguing with and trying to one up that type of behavior or trying to suppress it by force will never work and will only make their will stronger. When a kid sees your are annoyed it only eggs him on that much more. Now that does not mean the Macedonians i ROM should do nothing. It only means that they should be cool and level headed and smile in the face of provocation and by no means resort to violence or tit for tat strategies. I said they are doing this right but for the wrong reason, they are in fact keeping quiet because they are scared of the Albanians this is what I meant by the wrong reason. I think the

First step should be a self awareness among Macedonians that 1)we are above childish provocation 2) that we have nothing to gain by engaging them directly through force or violence 3) stooping to their level will only embolden them and waist our time without actually solving any problems.

Step two is knowing that you can fight back, in a different way and that they are not stronger than us in any way, even with US backing they can be beaten. Our odd fear of them must be disappear and fast, and i believe it will disappear if people follow step one which give them comfort that violence will not be a part of fighting back. Honestly I think that is what most people fear (violence) once that is out of the equation what is left to fear?

Step three, realize that we do have something to lose thus making it mandatory to take some sort of action. People need to realize that pride is not what we are set to loose in all of this. It is our sovereignty and safety. For us our children and grand children.

Step four, is action meaning full action. What action do I speak of. Well at the moment I know only broad strokes of what I believe should be done and thus far that is. Analyzing the Albanians and their actions, motivations, and weaknesses. Every person every culture has a weakness of some sort. We already established that we can not beat them at their game. What game can we play that they suck at? They are primitive, this comes to mind, they are easily manipulated, very left behind in their principles and home life. There must be something in them that we can exploit.

That is where I am at so far. Trying to look more closely at them and see what we can exploit in our favor. I refuse to believe that such a wild unintelligent people can not be beaten through their own stupidity.