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-   -   Albanianization in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837)

vicsinad 09-12-2012 08:58 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;133661]To be entirely accurate, this ensures Macedonia will never be the homeland for Macedonians. Lending support or justification to anything like this can only be construed as anti-Macedonian.

I could happily ignore Epirot & co. for hours but to have a Macedonian painting this in a comfortable hue is disgusting.[/QUOTE]

Macedonia is the homeland for the people that live there -- their ethnic, cultural, or religious background should not matter. That viewpoint is not anti-Macedonian in anyway.

vicsinad 09-12-2012 09:07 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;133667]

When you provide the example of that 'one man' who can veto what 100 have agreed to in the US, it is completely irrelevant and as usual, completely ill-informed. Firstly, that 'one man' power is not based on ethnic background. Secondly, that 'one man' is elected by the same people who elected the 100. Thirdly, that 'one man's veto can be overridden by the Congress. That makes it an effective 'check and balance'. This has absolutely no bearing on the Macedonian case, where the ethnically based Albanian veto is final and way out of proportion to their actual numbers.
[/QUOTE]

Accounting for that the US veto can be overridden, the US President can veto a bill that between 51 and 66 elected Senators voted for, the Senate cannot override that veto without 2/3's of the Senate. Yes, this is a check-and-balance on the powers between two branches (but it still makes one man's minority voice override the 66 majority members' voices), but the Baditner principle is really a check of the minority on the majority (in the Macedonian case, the minority ethnic group having a check on the majority ethnic group).

Vangelovski 09-12-2012 09:09 PM

[quote=vicsinad;133686]Macedonia is the homeland for the people that live there -- their ethnic, cultural, or religious background should not matter. That viewpoint is not anti-Macedonian in anyway.[/quote]
That depends on your definition of 'homeland'. At the individual level, I would agree that all citizens should consider Macedonia as their 'homeland', but to suggest that Macedonia is a 'homeland' to an ethnic group, such as the Albanian nation, is ludicrous.

Vangelovski 09-12-2012 09:13 PM

[quote=vicsinad;133688]Accounting for that the US veto can be overridden, the US President can veto a bill that between 51 and 66 elected Senators voted for, the Senate cannot override that veto without 2/3's of the Senate. Yes, this is a check-and-balance on the powers between two branches (but it still makes one man's minority voice override the 66 majority members' voices), but the Baditner principle is really a check of the minority on the majority (in the Macedonian case, the minority ethnic group having a check on the majority ethnic group).[/quote]vicsinad, my patience has grown very thin with you. You're failing to make any sense (with factual inaccuracies plaguing your post) and in particular, to articulate what the US system (on which you were unable to address my points) has to do with Macedonia's ethnically based veto power.

I'm going to give you the same advice as I gave to Epirot, but you should take it more stringently seeing as your Macedonian. This is a very important topic, don't pollute it with irrelevant and inaccurate rubbish. If you are unable to contribute from an informed position, don't contribute at all.

vicsinad 09-12-2012 09:14 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;133689]but to suggest that Macedonia is a 'homeland' to an ethnic group, such as the Albanian nation, is ludicrous.[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree.

Vangelovski 09-12-2012 09:16 PM

[quote=vicsinad;133692]I absolutely agree.[/quote]I forgot to add that it can only be the 'homeland', in a collective sense, to the Macedonian nation. I thought that was implied, but reading my post again I realise that may not be the case.

vicsinad 09-12-2012 09:16 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;133691]vicsinad, my patience has grown very thin with you. You're failing to make any sense (with factual inaccuracies plaguing your post) and in particular, to articulate what the US system (on which you were unable to address my points) has to do with Macedonia's ethnically based veto power.

I'm going to give you the same advice as I gave to Epirot, but you should take it more stringently seeing as your Macedonian. This is a very important topic, don't pollute it with irrelevant and inaccurate rubbish. If you are unable to contribute from an informed position, don't contribute at all.[/QUOTE]

What this means for me and all other readers/posters: if you don't hold Vangelovski's views, don't post.

Risto the Great 09-12-2012 09:32 PM

[QUOTE=vicsinad;133686]Macedonia is the homeland for the people that live there -- their ethnic, cultural, or religious background should not matter. That viewpoint is not anti-Macedonian in anyway.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you are right. It is a place they can all point at on a map. But when they want to point at a place that nurtures the national, cultural and ethnic spirit of Macedonians, they will have to point somewhere else. That is why your sentiments are anti-Macedonian.

[QUOTE]What this means for me and all other readers/posters: if you don't hold Vangelovski's views, don't post.[/QUOTE]It actually means Macedonians are typically the worst enemy of Macedonians. Acceptance of the Ohrid Agreement and its ramifications should place you in a minority amongst Macedonians. Even UMD rejected it. Are you that SDSM?

vicsinad 09-12-2012 09:47 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;133696]

It actually means Macedonians are typically the worst enemy of Macedonians. Acceptance of the Ohrid Agreement and its ramifications should place you in a minority amongst Macedonians. Even UMD rejected it. Are you that SDSM?[/QUOTE]

There's that SDSM stuff again... at least now there's recognition that I'm Macedonian and not Serbian :clap:

Anyway, I simply think that Vangelovski was over-exaggerating the ramifications of that particular section of the OFA. Because I suggest that one "principle" may not be as damaging, irrational and unjust as some have pointed it out to be does not suggest anything about any of my other views on any other part of the OFA.

Vangelovski 09-12-2012 11:01 PM

[quote=vicsinad;133694]What this means for me and all other readers/posters: if you don't hold Vangelovski's views, don't post.[/quote]No, it means get a basic grasp of the issues for which you want to debate, otherwise you're wasting time, space and promoting anti-Macedonian agenda's.


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