Macedonian Truth Forum

Macedonian Truth Forum (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/index.php)
-   Macedonian History (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Illinden Organization 1923 Picture (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8827)

maco2envy 09-05-2017 08:35 AM

Illinden Organization 1923 Picture
 
Would anyone know if this is real? Apparently it's from the ilinden organization and I think it was published in Sofia in 1923...

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-gs8iTW0AAFCSC.jpg[/IMG]

Starling 11-27-2017 04:32 PM

Dropping the image into google, the only pages that come up as using it are 3 twitter pages, this thread and another forum thread that got it from the wikipedia page on the Illinden organization, saying it's from the 1920s.

That thread actually has a bunch other interesting images related to the Illinden organization so here's a link: [url]https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?224628-Interesting-picture-from-Ilinden-organisation-in-1923-Sofia-Bulgaria[/url]

For further details you might have to make an account on that forum and ask the members who posted there. It's not on the wikipedia page cited anymore and there doesn't seem to be much of an online record of it so it probably came from a scanned historical document that doesn't display in google's image search algorithm.

maco2envy 11-27-2017 11:52 PM

I've never seen most of those images... Very interesting.

Liberator of Makedonija 11-28-2017 02:15 AM

Well it looks authentic.

Starling 11-28-2017 03:28 AM

Most of the other forum's images seem to be from illustrated calendars and postcards issued by the Ilinden organization.

I did the same thing with those images as I did with the one you initially posted and found a version of the first two without the alamy watermarks:

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Ilinden-Organisation-postcard.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_RTW_uZ5Rek/V6D7-9ReqzI/AAAAAAAAGY4/XOUTWclVTB855mpFWQdgIcEQ2ABJHJOCACLcB/s1600/34rdu0h.jpg[/IMG]

Alamy stock photos has a fair few historical images in the results for Illinden: [url]http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/ilinden.html[/url]

Basically if the alamy watermarks are too bothersome you can take the pictures there, drag and drop them into google images and then grab a better version from among the results. If you can't copy paste it from the site or don't want to go to it, you can drag and drop the image next to the link into a new tab and you'll have it as a google image result, where you can click view image to get an idea of the full size, like I did with the image below.

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Legitimacija_Ilinden_1910.jpg[/IMG]

Back to the image you first posted, I can't quite tell which historical Macedonians are pictured on the bottom, though the first three portraits seem to be saints Cyril and Methodius, saint Clement and Basil II, while Gotse Delchev is the 6th:

[IMG]http://stcyrils.maslar-online.com/monument/cyril.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Saint_Clement_of_Ohrid_%28icon%2C_13th-14th_century%29.jpg/1200px-Saint_Clement_of_Ohrid_%28icon%2C_13th-14th_century%29.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMacedonia/images/samoil.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Gotze.jpeg[/IMG]

Something I noticed while trying to find a depiction of Cyril and Methodius where both their beards were dark is that the Macedonian sun is in the background of their portrait.

I can't make out the signature but it definitely says 1923 in the lower right corner of the image above the portraits. You might be able to find a matching, more legible signature on other images. Between the 5 places it shows up in google, it'd have to be posted independently at least two-three of those times without knowledge of the other postings which seem to agree on its origins.

Also that's a lion on the shield right? And the Phrygian helmet is noteworthy as well. The throne has lions engraved on the armrests and eagles sitting on the back. The chainmail seems anachronistic though.

maco2envy 11-28-2017 05:32 AM

Thanks Starling, really informative^

[QUOTE]Back to the image you first posted, I can't quite tell which historical Macedonians are pictured on the bottom, though the first three portraits seem to be saints Cyril and Methodius, saint Clement and Basil II, while Gotse Delchev is the 6th:[/QUOTE]

I think you have the first two spot on, although I think the 3rd is Tsar Samuel and the 4th is Prince Marko. Basil II was mainly antagonised as a blood-thirsty Greek warlord (although that is very far from the truth) by Macedonians and Bulgarians at that time while Greeks used him a symbol of purging the Slavonic culture in Macedonia (again, far from true) during their so-called "Macedonian Struggle".

[QUOTE]Also that's a lion on the shield right? [/QUOTE]
That's what I thought too.

[QUOTE]The chainmail seems anachronistic though[/QUOTE]
I think everything in regard to his armor is anachronistic. Looks heavily Roman to me, especially what looks to be scale armor which was convention in the Eastern Roman Empire. Although in all fairness, Romanization of figures such as saints and ancient emperors is a very old tradition that dates back all the way to the Byzantine Empire.

Starling 11-28-2017 05:04 PM

[QUOTE]I think you have the first two spot on, although I think the 3rd is Tsar Samuel and the 4th is Prince Marko.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. So I guess Samoil's portrait cropped up in my search for Basil's:

[IMG]http://infomax.mk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/bf42c0e3-7555-4f9f-a465-679d4195ab1f-carsamoil.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Basil II was mainly antagonised as a blood-thirsty Greek warlord (although that is very far from the truth) by Macedonians and Bulgarians at that time while Greeks used him a symbol of purging the Slavonic culture in Macedonia (again, far from true) during their so-called "Macedonian Struggle".[/QUOTE]
You know, there's a distinct pattern to the portrayal of Macedonian historical figures. It seems like appropriating them isn't enough for people and they go out of their way to paint them as bloodthirsty, unsympathetic people who spread hellenism/whatever non-Macedonian culture they're claimed to have. Basil II may have opposed Samoil and therefore Macedonian independence but they were both Macedonian and the Macedonian dynasty was the longest and most prosperous period of the east Roman empire. It also seems to be trendy to portray Alexander as unsympathetically as possible or spread rumours of unflattering things that never actually happened or are grossly misrepresented. Given that the people doing those things tend to be Greek or philhelenes, it should really clue people in on the true motives behind it. People generally don't do that to their cultural or historical heroes.

[QUOTE]I think everything in regard to his armor is anachronistic. Looks heavily Roman to me, especially what looks to be scale armor which was convention in the Eastern Roman Empire. Although in all fairness, Romanization of figures such as saints and ancient emperors is a very old tradition that dates back all the way to the Byzantine Empire.[/QUOTE]
Scale armour is probably the correct term, thanks. I agree but that's the part that stuck out the most. Either they didn't have much to go on for his historically accurate appearance or just deliberately styled him with their most recent conception of antiquity, which would be eastern Rome. The facial features seem more or less like on his busts so they seem to have had [I]some[/I] idea of what he was supposed to look like.

Reminds me of of the nine worthies, where a bunch of historical figures were styled like knights despite not looking anything like one and the concept of chivalry being a recent invention.

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Hans_Burgkmair_d._%C3%84._Drei_heidnische_Helden.jpg/416px-Hans_Burgkmair_d._%C3%84._Drei_heidnische_Helden.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://b02.deliver.odai.yale.edu/1a/22/1a229d51-670d-4feb-812b-eef7265804a6/ag-obj-121184-001-rpd-med.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://previews.magnoliabox.com/liszt/flat/lc20160208_4388/MUS-FAPC2020_500.jpg[/IMG]

Pretty much every depiction of the nine worthies seems to be different, though not all of the group ones specify who's who. That middle one makes him look like Philip but the elephant's a nice way to make him seem grander than Hector and Cesar.

This Marko?
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Marko_-_Mina.jpg/220px-Marko_-_Mina.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://kmt.mk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/fMnETsS0wVk.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Marko_Mrnjavcevic.JPG/220px-Marko_Mrnjavcevic.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ziDr-wxobhw/Uf6OHN_ToeI/AAAAAAAAALQ/Kg1h2QAO4KQ/s1600/Krale+Marko+v2.jpg[/IMG]

He was mostly just a vassal king to the northern parts of Macedonia around Prilep and obligated to fight with the Turks and a devout christian who asked for forgiveness on his deathbed. I guess they put him in there because of all the legends and epic poetry that was made about him afterwards. Seems like his legend rivals Alexander's and fits well into the narrative of fighting for Macedonian independence. I'd love to read up on him as a folk hero.

The sun can be seen on his buttons in the first portrait and on his clothes in the church fresco, though the rounded quality makes them look like flowers. Interesting that he seems to be holding his mace like a scepter in the first image. As with Hercules' club, maces seem to have been weaponized scepters that retained the symbolic meaning of power an authority to an extent.

Any idea who the other 4 are? They seem to be in chronological order so if Marko Krale (1335-1395) is the 4th and Gotse Delchev (1872-1903) is the 6th, then the person in the 5th portrait would've lived in the time in between. The image was published in 1923 so the last 3 would have to be known figures before that point and be contemporaries of Delchev within the organization.

vicsinad 11-28-2017 09:32 PM

[QUOTE=Starling;170705]

Any idea who the other 4 are? They seem to be in chronological order so if Marko Krale (1335-1395) is the 4th and Gotse Delchev (1872-1903) is the 6th, then the person in the 5th portrait would've lived in the time in between. The image was published in 1923 so the last 3 would have to be known figures before that point and be contemporaries of Delchev within the organization.[/QUOTE]

Without a doubt number 5 right before Goce is Trajko Kitanchev. He was from Podmochani in Prespa, and he was a founder of SMAC (the External Organization), when it was still in the hands of Macedonian emigrants in Sofia. He died in 1895.

After Goce Delchev comes Dame Gruev, founder of IMRO. After Dame comes Boris Sarafov. I can't get a good look at the last's face.

vicsinad 11-28-2017 09:48 PM

The last is Anastas Jankov, another leader of the External SMAC group. Died 1906. He had run into conflicts with IMRO a lot before and after Ilinden Revolution. Despite his negative interactions with IMRO, he did say some things about Macedonian identity:

"I am not a Bulgarian, but a Macedonian and I wish for Macedonia to have freedom and self-government. This is the goal of all true Macedonians ... We Macedonians are able to raise an uprising in Macedonia to reassure the Great Powers that have signed the Berlin Treaty that they should fulfill what they have promised to Christians in European Turkey, but we are not alone let's do it ... We must especially hurry to do this before Serbia and Bulgaria agree on Macedonia. This agreement, in my opinion, would be fatal for the Macedonians, because Bulgaria and Serbia, after they settle for our homeland, will divide Macedonia and those parts will join their own states. " From "Stampa", December 1, 1903.

In 1902, he said:

"Macedonians! Remember the world's winner, the great glory of Macedonia, the great Alexander of Macedon; Remember for the brave King Samoil, the Macedonian giant, for the marvelous Marko Kral, the Slavic glory, that Macedonian blood flowed through them; those of heavenly heights watch and bless our initiated work. To show worthy descendants of their descendants: to preserve their glorious names and to amaze the world with our courage, dexterity and self-sacrifice; to cut off from us the shameful yoke that suffocates us for five centuries."

Starling 11-29-2017 04:29 AM

[QUOTE=vicsinad;170715]The last is Anastas Jankov, another leader of the External SMAC group. Died 1906. He had run into conflicts with IMRO a lot before and after Ilinden Revolution. Despite his negative interactions with IMRO, he did say some things about Macedonian identity:

"I am not a Bulgarian, but a Macedonian and I wish for Macedonia to have freedom and self-government. This is the goal of all true Macedonians ... We Macedonians are able to raise an uprising in Macedonia to reassure the Great Powers that have signed the Berlin Treaty that they should fulfill what they have promised to Christians in European Turkey, but we are not alone let's do it ... We must especially hurry to do this before Serbia and Bulgaria agree on Macedonia. This agreement, in my opinion, would be fatal for the Macedonians, because Bulgaria and Serbia, after they settle for our homeland, will divide Macedonia and those parts will join their own states. " From "Stampa", December 1, 1903.

In 1902, he said:

"Macedonians! Remember the world's winner, the great glory of Macedonia, the great Alexander of Macedon; Remember for the brave King Samoil, the Macedonian giant, for the marvelous Marko Kral, the Slavic glory, that Macedonian blood flowed through them; those of heavenly heights watch and bless our initiated work. To show worthy descendants of their descendants: to preserve their glorious names and to amaze the world with our courage, dexterity and self-sacrifice; to cut off from us the shameful yoke that suffocates us for five centuries."[/QUOTE]
Do you have a source for the quotes? It helps with citations.

To continue my trend of posting pictures of the revolutionaries:

Trajko Kitanchev
[IMG]http://macedonia.kroraina.com/rami/am/032_1.jpg[/IMG]

Dame Gruev
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/BASA-546K-1-108-23-Dame_Gruev.JPG[/IMG]

Boris Sarafov
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Boris_Sarafov_Portrait.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Boris_Sarafov.jpg[/IMG]

Anastas Jankov
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Anastas_Jankov.jpg[/IMG]

Another postcard:
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Postcard_VMOK.jpg[/IMG]

Found another potentially useful site: [url]http://macedoniandocuments.blogspot.ca/2009/04/dame-gruev.html[/url]

So that's the full set with either the exact portraits used or a very similar picture and pretty much all the info available regarding the image. Barring finding a physical copy or the issue it was published in there's not much else to do unless adding more images relating to the Ilinden Organization in general.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Macedonian Truth Organisation