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-   -   1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3841)

makedonche 02-04-2011 07:31 PM

Volton

[QUOTE]Exactly Onur, that is one of the reasons why I moved to Greece. Minor detail you left out, 3 or 4th generation Greeks that are Jack or Pierre [U][B]most likely couldnt care less about Turks or Macedonians altogether.[/B][/U] This I know from experience. Again you start to make sense than fail miserably.[/QUOTE]

Do you think they would be remotely interested in the truth?

Soldier of Macedon 02-06-2011 09:56 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88067]Of course if you isolate this statement on its own its ambiguous. It was said during a dialogue and within a wider context.[/QUOTE]
What 'wider context', explain yourself clearly.
[QUOTE]Who ?[/QUOTE]
Voltron, don't waste my time, I doubt you are that ill-informed about how many of your independence heroes or the people and regions they came from identified themselves and/or their language as Arbereshes, Arvanites, Arnauts or Shiptars (all ALBANIANS).
[QUOTE][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Botsaris[/url]

[B]In 1821, Botsaris made common cause with the Greeks against the Ottoman Empire[/B].[/QUOTE]
What does making common cause with Greek-speakers who identified as Romaioi have to do with fighting for the 'Hellenic cause'? Which one spoke of fighting for a 'Hellenic cause'?

Voltron 02-06-2011 02:40 PM

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;88217]What 'wider context', explain yourself clearly.

Voltron, don't waste my time, I doubt you are that ill-informed about how many of your independence heroes or the people and regions they came from identified themselves and/or their language as Arbereshes, Arvanites, Arnauts or Shiptars (all ALBANIANS).[/QUOTE]

SOM, Im not trying to waste your time. We have a small difference of interpretation. My whole position is how they see themselves today, not how we see them. Are they of Albanian origin ? Sure, why not ? and what would be the issue in that ? Was there even an Albania back then ? Or Albanians for that matter ? That is a whole seperate topic in itself worth reading somewhere if a thread is available.

[QUOTE]What does making common cause with Greek-speakers who identified as Romaioi have to do with fighting for the 'Hellenic cause'? Which one spoke of fighting for a 'Hellenic cause'?[/QUOTE]

End result is for the Hellenic cause. I think this is going into an issue of semantics and not substance.

Soldier of Macedon 02-06-2011 05:12 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88225]My whole position is how they see themselves today, not how we see them. Are they of Albanian origin ? Sure, why not ? and what would be the issue in that ? Was there even an Albania back then ? Or Albanians for that matter ? That is a whole seperate topic in itself worth reading somewhere if a thread is available.[/QUOTE]
There was neither an Albania or a Greece back then, but there were people who spoke Albanian and Greek as native tongues. The former are more significant and famous for your independence than the latter - by a long shot.
[QUOTE]End result is for the Hellenic cause. I think this is going into an issue of semantics and not substance.[/QUOTE]
No, the idea of fighting for 'the Hellenic cause' came later. This is not what the Albanians, Vlachs or even Greeks fought for during the 1820's, which was basically a Christian state in the Balkans independent from Muslim rule.

Orfej 02-07-2011 03:27 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88094] [QUOTE][QUOTE=Orfej;88092]

Assimilation over the years. We agree on that.[/QUOTE]

Yes, we agree on that! But we also should agree that there is a difference between regarding an assimilated Arvanite as a Greek and regarding an unassimilated Arvanite as a Greek. You see when an Arvanite speaks Albanian, dances and dresses like an Albanian etc. then he is not assimilated and is not a Greek.


[QUOTE=Voltron;88094]
Tons ? I wouldnt say anymore than any other country in the balkans.
[/QUOTE]

Iím sorry but I donít recall any other Christian ethnicity on the Balkans that assimilated so many groups in the past 200 years like the Greeks had. Maybe you can help me and tell me which?

[QUOTE=Voltron;88094]
50 K ? sure why not. I personally dont know. I never conducted a survey.
Nonetheless, no disagreement there. Again, just have someone ask these 50K Arvanites how they self identify. Again, I am not their spokesperson. I just respect how they want to be called. Nothing more .[/QUOTE]

Itís funny how all Greeks respect the feelings of the Arvanites and the `Slavophone Greeks`, but they donít respect the feelings of the Macedonians to be called as they want! Do you disagree with the Greek majority and the Greek state about their shameless actions to change the name of a neighboring state? Can you elaborate?

George S. 02-07-2011 06:03 PM

Not just assimmilation it's forced Assimilation where you don't have choice in the matter.The macedonian people were forbidden to speak or identify as macedonian. & other matters.

Daskalot 02-08-2011 09:04 AM

Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?

Risto the Great 02-09-2011 06:32 PM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;88400]Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?[/QUOTE]

Ahhhh, now we are getting somewhere.

Pelister 02-09-2011 09:43 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87970]
[B]To claim we dont exist or are a fabrication of westerners is utterly ridiculous.[/B] I dont take it seriously and hope you will grow out of it sometime soon.[/QUOTE]

This isn't about 'blood' or DNA, its about the New Greeks (people such as yourself) assuming a sham heritage and 'claiming' territory on the basis that your the true representatives of the ancient Greeks, when in fact you are not. It is ofcourse also about the New Greeks assuming regions were once 'Greek', in order that they might have a claim in the first place, but that is just a facile and weak attempt to conquer new territory. The New Greeks have never been able to accept people the way they found them. As a state its institutions, its government could never reflect the actual state of things on the ground. If you accepted people the way they were and actually allowed a free choice - there is no way you would hold one part of Macedonian territory right now. The ONLY way the invading 'Greeks' got it was by force, and the only way they held it was by force. That makes your 'title' legally defective. What you fail to properly acknowledge is just how historically defective it is too. The point I made about the way the New Greeks throw around loose categories of identity such as 'Hellenic' and 'Greek' is to write yourselves into new territory, where Greeks never existed. You by passed that point. It didn't seem to register with you.

Pelister 02-09-2011 09:46 PM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;88400]Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?[/QUOTE]

Exactly!

The New Greek has assumed a sham heritge. Its [I]historical[/I] claim to territory in the region, including Macedonian territory, is not legitimate. Its not valid. Neither is its legal claim a valid one.


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