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-   -   1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3841)

Voltron 02-08-2012 05:07 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;119712]You make a good little fascist, your Führer would have been proud of you.[/QUOTE]

I dont see why taxpayers have to foot the burden for a job their parents and family should do. It is not the governments responsibility to teach these people their heritage.

[QUOTE]All of those Vlachs know that they are a group with origins distinct from others in Greece, despite their deluded perception on ethnicity.[/QUOTE]

Deluded perception ? We have to treat people the way we want to be treated SOM. Its a 2 way street.

[QUOTE]How much do you think they were at the beginning of the 19th century, on the territory that originally came to form the Greek kingdom?[/QUOTE]

Not more than 15 to 20 percent.

[QUOTE]You question if they were forced. Did they at any point have a choice after independence was achieved? They fought in a religious war of Christians against Muslims alongside Greeks in the 1820's. They earned their keep and felt that they are the progenitors of the new nation alongside the Greeks. However, they weren't self-loathing peoples fighting for the creation of a 'Hellenic' state where their ethnicities, languages and cultures would be disregarded. Many of them were bound to want education in their own languages given their extensive use across the region, not just in private but also unofficially in politics, the military, etc.[/QUOTE]

The modern Greek nation is a mirror copy of how the modern Turkish nation was born. The Lausanne Treaty pretty much solidified both countries as "homogenos" (and no this does not mean genetic purity).
Looking back in how these events transpired in the past you have to take all this into consideration.

[QUOTE]Without a whimper? You're being naive. You need to start using the search function on this forum a bit more frequently. Start with the first page of this thread and the desire of Greeks to suppress the use of Albanian almost 100 years after independence was established[/QUOTE]

And the people we suppress happen to be todays most fervent nationalists. Tell an Arvanite today about his Albanian origins see what you get in response. If we are so talented in brainwashing people they should send a group of Greek politicians to Afghanistan, maybe we can change those people into Greeks instead of Islamofascists. Our politicians cant find their way out of a paper bag and somehow we managed to coerce minorities against their will. The only forcefull assimilation practices were ones done in Macedonia and I will give you that. But the rest is a different story.

Big Chukalo 02-08-2012 07:45 AM

[QUOTE]I dont see why taxpayers have to foot the burden for a job their parents and family should do. It is not the governments responsibility to teach these people their heritage.[/QUOTE]

You're confusing indigenous people with immigrants. This is the 21st century vre

Voltron 02-08-2012 08:15 AM

[QUOTE=Big Chukalo;119753]You're confusing indigenous people with immigrants. This is the 21st century vre[/QUOTE]

Greek is an indigenous language to the land so you would be right if we were teaching English. Its not our responsibility.

Valmir 02-08-2012 03:08 PM

[QUOTE]Not an if, we all have a Slavic element. No use in denying it. We also both have Vlach elements. The Arvanites are more related to Greece than Macedonia as the Arbaresh are for Italy. But they are a small number to make a real impact in the overall population. [B]Nonetheless we consider them Greeks as they themselves do.[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank your devilish Greek Orthodox church about that, if they were Muslims they would never call their self Greek! NEVER!

Voltron 02-08-2012 03:34 PM

[QUOTE=Valmir;119766]Thank your devilish Greek Orthodox church about that, if they were Muslims they would never call their self Greek! NEVER![/QUOTE]

Valmir the Christian Arvanites aligned themselves willingly with the Greeks for the simple fact they did not see their Muslim counterparts as "brothers". Just like we dont see Greek Muslims as Greeks. They were considered Turko-Alvani or more simply as Turks by both Greeks and Arvanites alike.

Big Chukalo 02-08-2012 06:19 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;119754]Greek is an indigenous language to the land so you would be right if we were teaching English. Its not our responsibility.[/QUOTE]

You're comparing paying for Pakistani night school for you're newest residents to what you did to the people that you found on the land in Macedonia a hundred years ago.

That explains alot about why we're in this mess today.

Wow.

Bill77 02-08-2012 09:20 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;119768]Just like we dont see Greek Muslims as Greeks. They were considered Turko-Alvani or more simply as Turks by both Greeks and Arvanites alike.[/QUOTE] I love it when you trip, and its often.

So now its a religious thing is it? What happened to your belief "Language determines ethnicity"?

Soldier of Macedon 02-08-2012 09:34 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;119740]I dont see why taxpayers have to foot the burden for a job their parents and family should do. It is not the governments responsibility to teach these people their heritage.[/QUOTE]
It is the job of any non-fascist government to provide assistance as required to ensure the human rights of all of their people. The preservation of culture is one of those rights.
[QUOTE]Deluded perception ? We have to treat people the way we want to be treated SOM. Its a 2 way street.[/QUOTE]
You can treat an African as a Serb if that is their wish, but that doesn't mean their perception isn't deluded. Reality has to come into play at some point mate.
[QUOTE]Not more than 15 to 20 percent.[/QUOTE]
According to some estimates, the Christian Albanian population in Greece reached up to 45% by the 15th century, and they were then supplemented by an additional wave of Muslim Albanians in the 18th century (Trudgill). In 1855, Edmond About estimated that 25% of Greece was populated by Albanians - that is almost 30 years after independence was achieved, which means 3 decades of state-sponsored 'Hellenic' propaganda that was generously being harnessed by your 'Philhellenic' friends in England, Germany and France. No doubt the number of Albanians was much higher. There is also the influence of the Patriarchate from the 18th century, which may have had different ideals to those propagating a Hellenic ideology - but still shared the same goal, namely, the creation of new Greek-speakers.

That is just the Albanians. Now consider the Macedonians and other Slavic-speaking peoples, the Vlachs and other Latin-speaking peoples, the Roma, etc. Alas, the uneducated peasantry had no chance against the clergy who dominated churches and schools or the local opportunists who were in government and singing the song of their 'Philhellenic' masters.
[QUOTE]The modern Greek nation is a mirror copy of how the modern Turkish nation was born. The Lausanne Treaty pretty much solidified both countries as "homogenos" (and no this does not mean genetic purity).[/QUOTE]
It solidified Greece as a Christian state, with no regard for its myriad of cultures and languages. Thus, if your notion of ethnicity is primarily based on religion (like it has been in the past), then it cannot be compared with a conventional ethnicity (like Macedonian) where the people share a common ancestry, native language and culture.
[QUOTE]And the people we suppress happen to be todays most fervent nationalists.[/QUOTE]
We have deluded Macedonians in Australia who were brought up in a grkoman environment, claim to be Greek, yet can't even speak Greek. They still speak Macedonian though. Funny, isn't it? You will find many such cases like that in the diaspora. Hopefully their children will be a little more honest with themselves.
[QUOTE]The only forcefull assimilation practices were ones done in Macedonia and I will give you that. But the rest is a different story.[/QUOTE]
It is the same story. The only difference is that Macedonians were more vocal.
[QUOTE]If we are so talented in brainwashing people they should send a group of Greek politicians to Afghanistan, maybe we can change those people into Greeks instead of Islamofascists.[/QUOTE]
Apples and oranges.

Voltron 02-09-2012 01:52 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;119790]It is the job of any non-fascist government to provide assistance as required to ensure the human rights of all of their people. The preservation of culture is one of those rights. [/QUOTE]

No, its not. Are you some isolated Amazon tribe that needs assistance from being wiped out ?

[QUOTE]You can treat an African as a Serb if that is their wish, but that doesn't mean their perception isn't deluded. Reality has to come into play at some point mate.[/QUOTE]

Irrelevant, an African is not from the Balkans.

[QUOTE]According to some estimates, the Christian Albanian population in Greece reached up to 45% by the 15th century, and they were then supplemented by an additional wave of Muslim Albanians in the 18th century (Trudgill). In 1855, Edmond About estimated that 25% of Greece was populated by Albanians - that is almost 30 years after independence was achieved, which means 3 decades of state-sponsored 'Hellenic' propaganda that was generously being harnessed by your 'Philhellenic' friends in England, Germany and France. No doubt the number of Albanians was much higher. There is also the influence of the Patriarchate from the 18th century, which may have had different ideals to those propagating a Hellenic ideology - but still shared the same goal, namely, the creation of new Greek-speakers.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, not more than 15 to 20%. That reference to 45% just to entertain that notion must apply then to the village where the Arvanites resided in. Other than that I cant think of any other way how that would make sense. That would mean 4 out of 10 Greeks are Arvanites. Hardly.

[QUOTE]That is just the Albanians. Now consider the Macedonians and other Slavic-speaking peoples, the Vlachs and other Latin-speaking peoples, the Roma, etc. Alas, the uneducated peasantry had no chance against the clergy who dominated churches and schools or the local opportunists who were in government and singing the song of their 'Philhellenic' masters. [/QUOTE]

So why couldnt we do the same to the Pomaks in Thrace. What is it about them that they somehow escaped the Greek masterplan.

[QUOTE]It solidified Greece as a Christian state, with no regard for its myriad of cultures and languages. Thus, if your notion of ethnicity is primarily based on religion (like it has been in the past), then it cannot be compared with a conventional ethnicity (like Macedonian) where the people share a common ancestry, native language and culture.[/QUOTE]

You have the same perception as Albanians do today. Both come from post communist countries with a new outlook on their identity. Along with Language and Location comes Culture. Part of culture or traditional common shared values is religion. If someone changes that they no longer share a common value therefore they dont fit into their ethnos. That is why Albanians and Macedonians have a flawed outlook into how they view their counterparts by saying even muslim ones fit the grade. The only way to justify this view is to then imply some type of genetic purity, but we all know that doesnt hold any weight.

[QUOTE]We have deluded Macedonians in Australia who were brought up in a grkoman environment, claim to be Greek, yet can't even speak Greek. They still speak Macedonian though. Funny, isn't it? You will find many such cases like that in the diaspora. Hopefully their children will be a little more honest with themselves.[/QUOTE]

If Slavic is a linguistic term and not ethnos by your own view than they are considered Slavic speaking Greeks.

[QUOTE]It is the same story. The only difference is that Macedonians were more vocal.[/QUOTE]

I was taking your and other posters word for it when I made that comment. Im sure there were some harsh policies put in place in Macedonia at times due to political events or as collateral damage from the Greco-Bulgarian fallout but thats about it.

Lastly I would like to point out that Bosnians created a new identity because of their religion. They are nothing more than Muslim Serbs.
Islam will override any type of ethnic ties at any given time. Their religion takes precedence so to try to include those people into your ethnos is impossible. Its just hopeless and will not work.

Voltron 02-09-2012 01:53 AM

[QUOTE=Bill77;119789]I love it when you trip, and its often.

So now its a religious thing is it? What happened to your belief "Language determines ethnicity"?[/QUOTE]

It does when in conjuntion with Location and Culture.
Religion is a part of Culture. Where is the slippage Bill ?


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